Thing For Which We Should Give Credit to Patricia and Quin

[Karnage84]

2 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

How so ? This seems irrelevant yet irritating.  I’m not arguing PFF’s usefulness or success in this instance. You claimed the people reviewing the film were ALL former players, coaches and scouts and I think we can both agree that’s not factual at this point correct?  I went on further regarding what exactly constitutes a former player, coach or scout to them, I mean I’m a former football player.  But that’s not relevant to the original point

 

I agree with this 100%. 
 

I just value there system, evaluators and results a bit less than some.

You could just join up as an analyst and then tell us how the big PFF machine works. Utilize your background and experience in football and tell us whether your input would then be qualified enough to be supported. 

Not being sarcastic or anything at all either - because there is some skepticism on your part, I do wonder if that experiment would change your perspective on PFF or if it would only strengthen it. Would be interesting. 

[BigC421/]

3 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

PFF is owned by Cris Collinsworth (former NFLer). They've had Solomon Wilcots (former NFLer), Bruce Gradkowski (former NFLer), Zac Robinson (former NFLer) all involved as senior analysts. 

I think you're also overthinking what a NFL scout gets paid. Average salary is $45,000 to $95,000 and that's assuming that you're working for a team. There are a ton of guys that get fired when a new regime comes in. Jim Nagy, director of the Reese's Senior Bowl, has discussed their annual turnover because they've brought in guys who have experience and are looking to get into that next job. 

NFL teams hire them, media folks cite them and use them as a resource. It's not the end all be all but it seems dismissive to throw it out altogether. 

 

Agree mostly.  I’m aware it’s very big in pop culture.  I don’t doubt there are some talented people who happen to evaluate for PFF from time to time.  I agree it can be useful to take in the evaluation or point of view from anyone who dedicates a lot of time and effort to the craft.  It can be even more useful when that evaluation is reviewed and rereviwed by other like minded people.

 Useful does not always mean accurate.  When people say it’s not the be all end all ( this is a very common phrase among people who are going to treat said thing like the be all end all) they consistently reference the information as if it’s proof.  This entire thing started over Trey Flowers and the run blocking.  Most of us have watched every lions snap this season a minimum of once.  Some people ( myself included) are arguing that from our own eyes Trey Flowers has had no where near the impact of a top 3 edge rusher nor has the offensive lines run blocking been at an elite level ( key word elite). The other side is arguing “well pff says” without really backing it up with anything else.  I’ve herd no one of the opinion “I’ve watched Trey Flowers and he’s an elite player”. So naturally the flaws of the system came under attack.

All I’m saying.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

But how many of us watch every single player from every single team each week? Who has time for that?

My point is that it's entirely possible for Flowers to be performing at a top 3 level when compared to every other NFL player right now. Not name recognition. Not the occasional highlight reel play. Overall. You claimed that this alone showed how PFF was flawed. I don't see it.

[Sllim Pickens]

1 hour ago, BigC421/ said:

How so ? This seems irrelevant yet irritating.  I’m not arguing PFF’s usefulness or success in this instance. You claimed the people reviewing the film were ALL former players, coaches and scouts and I think we can both agree that’s not factual at this point correct?  I went on further regarding what exactly constitutes a former player, coach or scout to them, I mean I’m a former football player.  But that’s not relevant to the original point

 

I agree with this 100%. 
 

I just value there system, evaluators and results a bit less than some.

The people doing the final reviews are highly qualified and include coaches, players, scouts.  I didnt say all, I said they had knowledgeable people there and if not doing every review, they are doing final reviews.  Its how we do things in public accounting, newbs do the grunt work, more experienced review that, and then more experienced review yet again.    

Not sure you can agree with what I said when you have been fighting it and claiming their stats are garbage.  

[BigC421/]

2 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

The people doing the final reviews are highly qualified and include coaches, players, scouts.  I didnt say all, I said they had knowledgeable people there and if not doing every review, they are doing final reviews.  Its how we do things in public accounting, newbs do the grunt work, more experienced review that, and then more experienced review yet again.    

Not sure you can agree with what I said when you have been fighting it and claiming their stats are garbage.  

Omg what’s happened to you my man.  We are going in circles over nothing.  You literally said “ all” i copy and pasted your exact quote saying all . How are you denying this, it’s right there.  Who even cares? ( yes I’m just as guilty) 

Did I say all there stats are garbage? No I didn’t, I questioned there process ie grading system and what exactly it is that it’s even grading.  Several other million people who are devoted to football have had similar questions.  I questioned the credibility of the people doing the analysis.  This is no different than you questioning my opinion or anyone else’s.  I am not deemed an expert in the field but neither are they.  Your assertion that the people doing the final reviews are highly qualified is completely fabricated by your desires. They are mostly just guys like us. That doesn’t mean we can’ form solid opinions based on evaluation.  I’ve reiterated countless times it’s a useful tool.  I understand your reaction that I’ve been negative towards it but that’s just the bounds of the discussion.  There’s plenty to like about pff but I’m not going to go into my every thought.  
 

36 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

But how many of us watch every single player from every single team each week? Who has time for that?

My point is that it's entirely possible for Flowers to be performing at a top 3 level when compared to every other NFL player right now. Not name recognition. Not the occasional highlight reel play. Overall. You claimed that this alone showed how PFF was flawed. I don't see it.

Isn’t that the point?  We can’t possibly form a true evaluation on every player or unit in the league.  So when you see a grade or rank for players your very familiar with being grossly inaccurate it raises questions.  I have watched every Trey Flowers snap and he’s been rather pedestrian 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

47 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

Isn’t that the point?  We can’t possibly form a true evaluation on every player or unit in the league.  So when you see a grade or rank for players your very familiar with being grossly inaccurate it raises questions.  I have watched every Trey Flowers snap and he’s been rather pedestrian 

That's exactly the point. One source that grades all players through the same lens - as flawed as that lens may be - is a more reliable source than one guy on an internet forum saying "I've watched this one player, and I think he has been rather pedestrian, therefore he couldn't possibly be outperforming other players that I haven't watched play this year". Name recognition has a lot to do with it as well.

So, again, despite how Flowers may not have wowed you this year, a source that watches and grades all players seems to think that he has played at a high level compared to other players in the league.

[BigC421/]

19 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

That's exactly the point. One source that grades all players through the same lens - as flawed as that lens may be - is a more reliable source than one guy on an internet forum saying "I've watched this one player, and I think he has been rather pedestrian, therefore he couldn't possibly be outperforming other players that I haven't watched play this year". Name recognition has a lot to do with it as well.

So, again, despite how Flowers may not have wowed you this year, a source that watches and grades all players seems to think that he has played at a high level compared to other players in the league.

Wow that’s quite the reversal you tried to pull there. Taking a singular source and turn it into the consensus vs some guy on the internet.  I hate to be the bearer but I’m actually siding with the consensus and pff is the outlier in regards to Flowers.  Who else thinks Flowers is elite? There’s a lot of people who evaluate football for a living in various forms of media who are very well credentialed, I’ve never come across anyone mentioning Flowers as elite.  The consensus is he’s good but not great.  Should we also trust there opinion that Mo Ali Carpet has been the best TE this year?  

[Karnage84]

13 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

Wow that’s quite the reversal you tried to pull there. Taking a singular source and turn it into the consensus vs some guy on the internet.  I hate to be the bearer but I’m actually siding with the consensus and pff is the outlier in regards to Flowers.  Who else thinks Flowers is elite? There’s a lot of people who evaluate football for a living in various forms of media who are very well credentialed, I’ve never come across anyone mentioning Flowers as elite.  The consensus is he’s good but not great.  Should we also trust there opinion that Mo Ali Carpet has been the best TE this year?  

Could all of this just be based on different interpretations of what is good or bad DE/Edge play? In a lot of cases sack production seems to be the reigning stat for stud pass rushers. However, we don't hear a lot in those same conversations about pressures, run defense, pat downs, etc. Maybe PFF is placing equal or more weight on some of the nuanced parts of the job while Flowers is not getting the high sack numbers that general media folks look and use as the basis of what a stud DE/Edge guy should be. 

 

[Nnivolcm]

2 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Could all of this just be based on different interpretations of what is good or bad DE/Edge play? In a lot of cases sack production seems to be the reigning stat for stud pass rushers. However, we don't hear a lot in those same conversations about pressures, run defense, pat downs, etc. Maybe PFF is placing equal or more weight on some of the nuanced parts of the job while Flowers is not getting the high sack numbers that general media folks look and use as the basis of what a stud DE/Edge guy should be. 

 

Whatever PFF is placing weight in doesn't translate to a better pass rush or better run defense imo. 

[Karnage84]

As part of the overall conversation, this is a job posting for an Analyst role with PFF. This is for the absolute bottom of the barrel and essentially appears to be basic data entry. 

Quote

 

https://www.pff.com/pff-data-analysts

FOOTBALL ANALYSTS
PFF is seeking a number of highly enthusiastic and dedicated football fans to join our football analysis team in a part-time capacity. If you’re a passionate follower of football, looking to expand your knowledge of the game and get a foot in the door of the football industry, then you could have what it takes to become a part of PFF.

Data collection can take upwards of 10 hours per game to collect initially and, although this does reduce considerably with experience, it is not for the faint of heart. Producing this data improves your knowledge of the game and puts you in a position to represent PFF across a multitude of platforms as you develop with the company.

The successful candidate must have:

At least 20 hours of free time per week during the football season, including at least 10 hours on Saturday afternoons/evenings or at least 7 hours of free time on Sunday afternoons/evenings.

 

As was already established, 600 analysts/16 games (non bye weeks) is 38 analysts per game. 38 X 20 hours is 760 hours per week, per game. (43 analysts on games with the usual bye weeks).

3 hour original broadcast + 4 x 1 hour condensed viewing (NFL Gamepass or similar tools) = viewing each game approximately 5x per analyst. It's entirely possible these guys are not "on the clock" until the games are over and then watch it 7x on condensed viewing but the 5x also seems probable/likely. 

It's a lot of manpower invested to collect the raw data from each game. 

It's not a perfect system but statistics aren't about perfection, that's where variance and standard deviation comes into play. We're also not dealing with just numbers on a sheet but people where things like injuries and personal or off field issues can skew some of the information. < This is more related to the draft but can be a factor with veterans as well. 

 

[HashtagFTW]

On 10/29/2020 at 5:48 PM, Karnage84 said:

You could just join up as an analyst and then tell us how the big PFF machine works. Utilize your background and experience in football and tell us whether your input would then be qualified enough to be supported. 

Not being sarcastic or anything at all either - because there is some skepticism on your part, I do wonder if that experiment would change your perspective on PFF or if it would only strengthen it. Would be interesting. 

Not possible. He lives in Kentucky. Not Bangladesh. Doesn’t qualify. 

[Karnage84]

4 minutes ago, HashtagFTW said:

Not possible. He lives in Kentucky. Not Bangladesh. Doesn’t qualify. 

They only accept applications from US, Canada, UK, Ireland. So unless Kentucky has seceded, he can definitely apply. Isn't Kentucky also just the Bangladesh of the south anyway?

[HashtagFTW]

Just now, Karnage84 said:

They only accept applications from US, Canada, UK, Ireland. So unless Kentucky has seceded, he can definitely apply. Isn't Kentucky also just the Bangladesh of the south anyway?

Woosh 

[BigC421/]

9 hours ago, HashtagFTW said:

Not possible. He lives in Kentucky. Not Bangladesh. Doesn’t qualify. 

 

9 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

They only accept applications from US, Canada, UK, Ireland. So unless Kentucky has seceded, he can definitely apply. Isn't Kentucky also just the Bangladesh of the south anyway?

Cool now we’ve moved on to personal insults to anyone who isn’t a blind believer in something you have zero evidence of.  I guess that makes you the cultists praying at the PFF alter. We can go to pff if we want there opinions no need for mindless drones just regurgitating it.  Try watching a game and having an original thought of your own to discuss 

I live just outside of Detroit not sure what Kentucky has to do with anything other than making you look like a couple of boners

The Bangladesh story came out of 97.1 a few years back when TJ Lang was a regular fill in.  He was a pretty big critic of pff, watched film and just didn’t believe there grades added up to his own evaluation. He wasn’t overly harsh or anything just didn’t see what they were seeing.  So the ticket reached out to pff and offered to pay to fly there oline analyst to Detroit to watch film with TJ and compare notes.  PFF did respond however they claimed there oline analyst was currently living in Bangladesh and it was to much trouble. True story

[Karnage84]

2 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

 

Cool now we’ve moved on to personal insults to anyone who isn’t a blind believer in something you have zero evidence of.  I guess that makes you the cultists praying at the PFF alter. We can go to pff if we want there opinions no need for mindless drones just regurgitating it.  Try watching a game and having an original thought of your own to discuss 

I live just outside of Detroit not sure what Kentucky has to do with anything other than making you look like a couple of boners

The Bangladesh story came out of 97.1 a few years back when TJ Lang was a regular fill in.  He was a pretty big critic of pff, watched film and just didn’t believe there grades added up to his own evaluation. He wasn’t overly harsh or anything just didn’t see what they were seeing.  So the ticket reached out to pff and offered to pay to fly there oline analyst to Detroit to watch film with TJ and compare notes.  PFF did respond however they claimed there oline analyst was currently living in Bangladesh and it was to much trouble. True story

I had a longer response but it was thrown out. 

Long story short, I'm not from Detroit and had never heard that TJ Lang story. I think you raise some really good points and I can understand where you are coming from on PFF. I'm not going to dismiss it entirely but it is good to have a healthy skepticism. So thank you for highlighting some of the discrepancies for all of us. Good post.