champ11 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, beekay414 said: People are putting too much stock into small samples. LeBron didn't win a title until he was 27 and I don't think anyone had any problems putting him at #1 or #2 in the league before then. Giannis is accomplished similar success as LeBron had by age 25 except making it to the Finals. absolutely. and Giannis still is on his way to become an all time great. but that top tier of guys are championship level first options. he hasn't proven to be that guy and he doesn't have that skillset as of now. he's in the east and doesn't have any impressive playoff victories. I think it's fair to have him out of that top tier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, champ11 said: absolutely. and Giannis still is on his way to become an all time great. but that top tier of guys are championship level first options. he hasn't proven to be that guy and he doesn't have that skillset as of now. he's in the east and doesn't have any impressive playoff victories. I think it's fair to have him out of that top tier You have a 30+ year old dude coming off a blown achilles ahead of him that hasn't won a damn thing as the lead dog either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, beekay414 said: You have a 30+ year old dude coming off a blown achilles ahead of him that hasn't won a damn thing as the lead dog either. it's not purely about results. it's about process and unfortunately for Giannis both are working against him right now. and you can leave KD out due to the injury. i'd still have the top tier be what it is and giannis outside of it. Edited October 26, 2020 by champ11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Just now, champ11 said: it's not about results. it's about process. unfortunately for Giannis both are working against him right now. and you can leave KD out due to the injury. i'd still have the top tier be what it is and giannis outside of it. What does that even mean? lol I'm fine with LeBron, Curry and Leonard being in a tier of their own. I just disagree with KD being there at this point. Plus, and I've had to say this numerous times because context is never taken into account with this **** and all the blame gets put on one dude. The Bucks win the NBA title in 2019 if Fred VanVleet doesn't go nuclear. We lost games 5 and 6 by 6 points each game. FVV averaged a 5.5-7.0 3pt shooting line. I get that **** happens but people act like Giannis blew that series and not that Toronto flat out won it. Give credit to Toronto FFS. They played that series as well as they possibly could have and we still barely lost the series. An L is an L but acting like Giannis is the reason we lost is just absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 13 minutes ago, beekay414 said: What does that even mean? lol I'm fine with LeBron, Curry and Leonard being in a tier of their own. I just disagree with KD being there at this point. Plus, and I've had to say this numerous times because context is never taken into account with this **** and all the blame gets put on one dude. The Bucks win the NBA title in 2019 if Fred VanVleet doesn't go nuclear. We lost games 5 and 6 by 6 points each game. FVV averaged a 5.5-7.0 3pt shooting line. I get that **** happens but people act like Giannis blew that series and not that Toronto flat out won it. Give credit to Toronto FFS. They played that series as well as they possibly could have and we still barely lost the series. An L is an L but acting like Giannis is the reason we lost is just absurd. it means i'm not holding him "not winning anything as a lead dog" against him. you came back with some what-about-ism with KD and I don't evaluate players like that. healthy KD is very clearly in that top tier of guys but if we are unsure about the injury that's fine. who knows with an achilles. to me he needs to add to his bag to be a great player in the playoffs offensively. i don't hold the toronto series against him and honestly i missed those couple games. so maybe my evaluation is off on him. but he has limitations on his ability to score and take over games and that part of the game is weighted at a higher value when we get to these top guys. I really don't think him getting bumped to the second tier is much to complain about honestly. he's still a top 5 or so guy. he crumbled with his team in a 5 game series in the second round of the eastern playoffs. the Bucks are lucky the clippers happened, really. I do think Bledsoe stinks. Brook shooting threes is fine in the regular season but seeing him launch threes in the fourth quarter of a must win playoff game is a joke. I think clearly Bud needs to go back to the drawing board if he isn't gonna get the axe. So I think a lot of the issues in Milwaukee aren't on Giannis. But they also wouldn't need to rely on these guys as much if he developed as a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 4 minutes ago, champ11 said: it means i'm not holding him "not winning anything as a lead dog" against him. you came back with some what-about-ism with KD and I don't evaluate players like that. healthy KD is very clearly in that top tier of guys but if we are unsure about the injury that's fine. who knows with an achilles. Why is healthy KD clearly there but Giannis isn't? KD hasn't won anything on his own. Why does he get the bump? 5 minutes ago, champ11 said: to me he needs to add to his bag to be a great player in the playoffs offensively. i don't hold the toronto series against him and honestly i missed those couple games. so maybe my evaluation is off on him. but he has limitations on his ability to score and take over games and that part of the game is weighted at a higher value when we get to these top guys. He's 25. LeBron didn't "add to his bag" until he was beyond 25 years old. I mean, Giannis has actually shot BETTER from 3 than LeBron did through the same age. People forget how one dimensional LeBron was at that age. Giannis through age 25: 23.7 PTS, 11.0 REB, 4.8 AST, 1.5 BLK, 1.1 STL, 3.0 TOV on 51.4/32.5/62.7 in 35.2 MPG (17 shots per game)LeBron through age 25: 29.4 PTS, 8.3 REB, 7.3 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.8 BLK, 3.7 TOV on 45.2/30.1/74.4 in 43.8 MPG (22 shots per game) 11 minutes ago, champ11 said: I really don't think him getting bumped to the second tier is much to complain about honestly. he's still a top 5 or so guy. he crumbled with his team in a 5 game series in the second round of the eastern playoffs. the Bucks are lucky the clippers happened, really. No we're not. Every Bucks fan knew the Heat series was going to be trouble. Spoelstra owns Budenholzer. And Giannis didn't friggin' crumble lol. He shot 60% (24-40) in 3 of the 4 games he played. 14 minutes ago, champ11 said: I do think Bledsoe stinks. Brook shooting threes is fine in the regular season but seeing him launch threes in the fourth quarter of a must win playoff game is a joke. I think clearly Bud needs to go back to the drawing board if he isn't gonna get the axe. So I think a lot of the issues in Milwaukee aren't on Giannis. But they also wouldn't need to rely on these guys as much if he developed as a player. Yes, asking guys to hit some shots is totally unreasonable. Giannis is far from the issue. We have a coach that couldn't adjust to something EVERYONE knew was coming, yet it's supposedly because Giannis hasn't "developed" lol. Man, y'all are wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 minute ago, beekay414 said: Why is healthy KD clearly there but Giannis isn't? KD hasn't won anything on his own. Why does he get the bump? He's 25. LeBron didn't "add to his bag" until he was beyond 25 years old. I mean, Giannis has actually shot BETTER from 3 than LeBron did through the same age. People forget how one dimensional LeBron was at that age. Giannis through age 25: 23.7 PTS, 11.0 REB, 4.8 AST, 1.5 BLK, 1.1 STL, 3.0 TOV on 51.4/32.5/62.7 in 35.2 MPG (17 shots per game)LeBron through age 25: 29.4 PTS, 8.3 REB, 7.3 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.8 BLK, 3.7 TOV on 45.2/30.1/74.4 in 43.8 MPG (22 shots per game) No we're not. Every Bucks fan knew the Heat series was going to be trouble. Spoelstra owns Budenholzer. And Giannis didn't friggin' crumble lol. He shot 60% (24-40) in 3 of the 4 games he played. Yes, asking guys to hit some shots is totally unreasonable. Giannis is far from the issue. We have a coach that couldn't adjust to something EVERYONE knew was coming, yet it's supposedly because Giannis hasn't "developed" lol. Man, y'all are wild. Because KD was consistently an unstoppable force offensively at the highest levels. He can create and make his own shot against great defenses. That's a succint answer. I just gave you my issue with Giannis so the difference between those two for me is obvious Not sure what LeBron has to do with anything. I'm talking about Giannis' game right now. How were his three point attempts in the must win game 3 against Miami? I guess I am wild. I get holding it down for your guy. Nothing you really told me makes me doubt my opinion at all. You gotta hope he takes his issues more seriously this offseason than you are, tho. I don't even want the guy shooting threes. He's gotta add some more reliable counters to running at the rim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 minute ago, champ11 said: Because KD was consistently an unstoppable force offensively at the highest levels. He can create and make his own shot against great defenses. That's a succint answer. I just gave you my issue with Giannis so the difference between those two for me is obvious And despite all that, KD won exactly zero titles before becoming a coat tail rider. 1 minute ago, champ11 said: Not sure what LeBron has to do with anything. I'm talking about Giannis' game right now. How were his three point attempts in the must win game 3 against Miami? If you paid any attention at all to what I was talking about, you'd understand why LeBron is relevant to Giannis. 2 minutes ago, champ11 said: I guess I am wild. I get holding it down for your guy. Nothing you really told me makes me doubt my opinion at all. You gotta hope he takes his issues more seriously this offseason than you are, tho. I don't even want the guy shooting threes. He's gotta add some more reliable counters to running at the rim And here's the thing you're not getting. Giannis has more to his game than just running at the rim. We just have a coach that refuses to adapt to what he wants to do. Giannis shot almost 40% on jumpers that weren't 3s and 42.2% from 10 ft to 3pt. He has a midrange game. We just have a coach that puts no emphasis on midrange. He literally took that aspect away from Middleton in 2018-2019 FFS. I mean, if you watched the Bucks more than just the playoffs, you'd know Giannis isn't just a "run to the rim at all cost" player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 minute ago, beekay414 said: And despite all that, KD won exactly zero titles before becoming a coat tail rider. If you paid any attention at all to what I was talking about, you'd understand why LeBron is relevant to Giannis. And here's the thing you're not getting. Giannis has more to his game than just running at the rim. We just have a coach that refuses to adapt to what he wants to do. Giannis shot almost 40% on jumpers that weren't 3s and 42.2% from 10 ft to 3pt. He has a midrange game. We just have a coach that puts no emphasis on midrange. He literally took that aspect away from Middleton in 2018-2019 FFS. I mean, if you watched the Bucks more than just the playoffs, you'd know Giannis isn't just a "run to the rim at all cost" player. he accomplished a ton as the lead dog. he didn't win a title but he was close. he led numerous great teams. like I said, I am evaluating their games. it's telling me you obviously don't get the point of what we are talking about. you're holding it down for your guy. that's all good. i understand why you are making that comparison with bron, i just don't see why I need to dive into it lol. i just said in this thread Giannis is on his way to being an all time great. but that is not good enough! okay, it is Bud's fault. noted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, champ11 said: he accomplished a ton as the lead dog. he didn't win a title but he was close. he led numerous great teams. like I said, I am evaluating their games. it's telling me you obviously don't get the point of what we are talking about. you're holding it down for your guy. that's all good. Call me when Giannis loses in the playoffs with talent like Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka around him. I guess getting "close" is good enough if you deem them worthy of it. 5 minutes ago, champ11 said: i understand why you are making that comparison with bron, i just don't see why I need to dive into it lol. i just said in this thread Giannis is on his way to being an all time great. but that is not good enough! k 5 minutes ago, champ11 said: okay, it is Bud's fault. noted! Glad you're taking this seriously. 🙄 Edited October 26, 2020 by beekay414 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 15 minutes ago, beekay414 said: Call me when Giannis loses in the playoffs with talent like Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka around him. I guess getting "close" is good enough if you deem them worthy of it. k Glad you're taking this seriously. 🙄 beating the lakers, spurs, and losing to the lebron james led heat in the NBA finals is pretty impressive, tbh. you don't like KD....that's cool.....he's an all time great player i feel like i said what i wanted to say - nothing you said really swayed me in any way. i still believe Giannis can be in that top tier of guys with development. I don't think he's there yet. we can just let other people chime in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, champ11 said: beating the lakers, spurs, and losing to the lebron james led heat in the NBA finals is pretty impressive, tbh. you don't like KD....that's cool.....he's an all time great player You know what else is impressive? Being a b2b MVP and the MVP/DPOY in the same season, while leading an inept franchise to the #1 seed in b2b years at 24 and 25 years of age. 4 minutes ago, champ11 said: i feel like i said what i wanted to say - nothing you said really swayed me in any way. i still believe Giannis can be in that top tier of guys with development. I don't think he's there yet. we can just let other people chime in It's fine. People value what they value. I'm just not someone that puts such a heavy emphasis on the playoffs which is practically all anyone wants to do these days, like it's easy to win an NBA title and like there aren't a **** ton of variables and luck that goes into winning one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 2 hours ago, champ11 said: considering he's still top 5 or 6 on everyone's I would say it's not too dramatic considering the playoff collapse He's coming off one of the GOAT regular seasons and averaged 27-14-6 on 61% TS with 11.2 BPM/31.3 PER in the postseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 2 hours ago, beekay414 said: People are putting too much stock into small samples. LeBron didn't win a title until he was 27 and I don't think anyone had any problems putting him at #1 or #2 in the league before then. Giannis is accomplished similar success as LeBron had by age 25 except making it to the Finals. You can make a case that Giannis is more accomplished individually at age 25 than LeBron because he also has a DPOY to his name in addition to the 2x MVP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beekay414 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 minute ago, NYRaider said: You can make a case that Giannis is more accomplished individually at age 25 than LeBron because he also has a DPOY to his name in addition to the 2x MVP. For sure. I just didn't say that because LeBron got to the Finals and was 1st team All-NBA more often than Giannis has been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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