Week 7: Debbie Does Dallas comes to play with SE Jerome

[Thaiphoon]

24 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

The team rallying together, clipping off a bunch of wins and getting behind this coaching staff wouldn’t be the worst thing.

Would rather they do all of that without the ripping off a bunch of wins. 

It's insane to keep cheering for mediocrity. That gets you nowhere. We'll end up, again, having not enough good talent to be a dominant team...but just good enough to miss out on being in the draft spots to either a) take a generational talent on offense or b) trade out for multiple picks to stock the team. 

What happened last year needed to happen this year once we decided to nuke our 2019 first round pick from orbit. Until we moved away from the QB, I was on board with winning as many games as possible. Now? We need to pick as high as we can to either get the QB we want, or keep Allen as the starter and trade down and restock the team (and then try to find lightning in a bottle with another QB elsewhere or draft the QB in 2022). In short...to get better, faster...we need to suck more now. Which kills me as a fan, because I honestly do cheer each TD we score or good play we make. But I'm looking at this from a non-fan's viewpoint as well. And if I'm not making the playoffs with a chance for a Lombardi, I want as many options as I can get next draft.

 

[naptownskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Thaiphoon said:

9th right now. Only one with a worse SoS than us? The Cowgirls. And they have the 8th.

This is why the whole "we can win the division, yay" stuff kills me.

Yes, we probably could. But do we want to and screw over our team long-term?

Dallas is probably looking at a new QB too.  Dakota has a serious leg injury, and they have honestly given out a lot of large contracts that they would benefit from drafting a rookie in the top 10.  Mac Jones would probably be a great choice for this team, and not re-signing Prescott would also enable them to bring back Michael Gallup and retain weapons for Jones- or whomever the rookie QB they pick is.  Imagine giving a young QB EE, Cooper, Gallup and Lamb.  Draft the QB, and then go all out on fixing the OL and defense. 

Meanwhile, we're going to be stuck without a franchise QB again because we abandoned our plan.  

[naptownskinsfan]

1 hour ago, ripsean21 said:

The Bills snuck in with a bad record on year and they overachieved. It didn’t keep their rebuild they hit on that pick with a lockdown CB!!! The Seahawks won a division at 7-9 and drafted Russell Wilson. Tanking just means more losing. I’ll take the wins. I’ll take the locker room and I’ll trust our scouts. Good teams don’t pick high very often. We got lucky we got Chase for sucking honestly we deserve that guy.
But maybe this puts us in Pitts or Friermouth range. Or maybe it’s not Sewell but there are plenty of options. Or what about Davis the G from Ohio ST. He’s not Nelson but man he and Schreff would really solidify the middle. Idc where we draft there will be talent. Getting this team will have options we have plenty of spots we need to improve to be a serious contender

The Bills already had their QB selected and he was dedicated to his growth in the off-season even with a pandemic.  They had enough talent in house that they were able to trade for Diggs and upgrade their weapons for said QB.  

The Seahawks got lucky to get Wilson in the third.  Do you feel comfortable with our coaching staff taking Jamie Newman in the third and making him into the next Russell Wilson?  

Rivera finished very poorly with the Panthers, sub .500 over his last four years.  Our scouts have done better, but they are nowhere near the level of the elite organizations like Baltimore or Seattle to deserve our trust like that.  

[ripsean21]

1 hour ago, Thaiphoon said:

They already had their QB. And they were already in the right direction with better talent. We have neither. If we were in their position this year? Yeah. I'd be all for it. But we're not.

And got lucky because they got him in the 3rd round. If that's the type of gamble you want to make, then we can certainly do it. 

The fact is that those are anecdotal evidence (even the Brady example is a clear anecdote). The trend is pretty clear that if you're not drafted highly as a QB, you're not going to do much of anything in the league.

No one said for the players or coaches to intentionally tank. I want them to try to win. And fail.

Good teams are good for a reason. They have talent and they have good coaching. Do with have either of them? 

Furthermore, going on runs to finish a season with bad/mediocre teams does not guarantee you success the following season(s). We've done it multiple times under Snyder. And yet here we are. Other teams have had the same results. 

Um...hello...had we followed your advice and gone 7-9 last year, we miss out on Chase. You can't decry the push to get elite talent at the top of the draft, and then also say "hey, look at this generational player we got...with the 2nd pick in the draft"

 

We might have to start talking about them. Because this team is gonna chase the division (while still "evaluating talent" and not having an actual plan to do so) and end up winning 5-6 games and we pick 10th. I'd rather be at 1st or 2nd and either take Lawrence (1st) / Fields (2nd) or, if 3rd or so, trade down and get extra picks.

Ultimately all the teams with franchise QB’s got lucky. But their all talented coming out. I’d rather take another shot at QB with a winning culture then to keep losing and have to hope we change the culture before we lose Payne and Sweat because they want to win. Maybe Haskins develops but I’m pretty sure he mentally just doesn’t have it. But the bills went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor in year one of the McDermott rebuild. That team is tough. They might not always win pretty but they developed a feisty roster and they didn’t tank. The Seahawks got lucky. They signed a guy to a long term deal and got a gem. But they didn’t tank. This idea that tanking is going to get us to winning faster is crazy. Winning brings confidence. Confidence is how you elevate/ maximize your talent.
 

Parsons I felt was the best player for this team in this next draft because his versatility and I believe that piece takes this defense over the top. But Holecomb’s development could make that a luxury now if we’re that high. We are finding out what we have. And these guys are buying in. When we had McVay this team bought in and we could have built off of that if the Rams weren’t smart. Having a roster buying into the staff is the best way to maximize your rebuild more so then any one player regardless of position. The best thing we could give any player brought in is a locker room full of players giving it their all because they believe. So maybe we draft a QB and maybe it’s not the guy everyone loves but he gets into camp and just starts lighting it up. Things like that happen to teams that have good locker rooms

[naptownskinsfan]

1 hour ago, Thaiphoon said:

Would rather they do all of that without the ripping off a bunch of wins. 

It's insane to keep cheering for mediocrity. That gets you nowhere. We'll end up, again, having not enough good talent to be a dominant team...but just good enough to miss out on being in the draft spots to either a) take a generational talent on offense or b) trade out for multiple picks to stock the team. 

What happened last year needed to happen this year once we decided to nuke our 2019 first round pick from orbit. Until we moved away from the QB, I was on board with winning as many games as possible. Now? We need to pick as high as we can to either get the QB we want, or keep Allen as the starter and trade down and restock the team (and then try to find lightning in a bottle with another QB elsewhere or draft the QB in 2022). In short...to get better, faster...we need to suck more now. Which kills me as a fan, because I honestly do cheer each TD we score or good play we make. But I'm looking at this from a non-fan's viewpoint as well. And if I'm not making the playoffs with a chance for a Lombardi, I want as many options as I can get next draft.

 

I just don't understand what the coaching staff is doing.  We spent all of this time laying out a plan, and then go off it based off four games.  Not sticking to a plan really gets to me, especially when they went full-Football Team and, as you said, nuked our QB from orbit for another Rivera castoff.  

I just don't understand what this coaching staff is doing.  We have young guys who we should be evaluating making plays out there, like Antonio Gibson and Cole Holcomb.  Then on the next play, you see McKissir or Barber come out there, or Bostic comes in and blows his assignment.  By trying to compete, we aren't giving these young guys a chance to prove themselves and get comfortable in the system, and we are hurting their development.  For what?  A lower draft pick and veterans who are JAGs and won't be a part of this team's future in two years.  

[lavar703]

Another thing this team has to start considering is getting a deal done with Rouillier. He’s a free agent in the off-season and he’s developed into one of the leagues better centers. Also, name Kyle Smith GM for crying out loud. The guy just has an eye for talent in the draft. This past draft has produced some good players and I’d like to see Hudson actually get on the field. Also, they have to see what Bryce Love can do. When he returns from IR he needs to be out there splitting carries with Gibson and McKissic needs to move to WR. I think McKissic could be dynamic in the slot. 

[Matts4313]

27 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Dallas is probably looking at a new QB too.  Dakota has a serious leg injury, and they have honestly given out a lot of large contracts that they would benefit from drafting a rookie in the top 10.  Mac Jones would probably be a great choice for this team, and not re-signing Prescott would also enable them to bring back Michael Gallup and retain weapons for Jones- or whomever the rookie QB they pick is.  Imagine giving a young QB EE, Cooper, Gallup and Lamb.  Draft the QB, and then go all out on fixing the OL and defense. 

Meanwhile, we're going to be stuck without a franchise QB again because we abandoned our plan.  

I disagree with everything you posted here. 

1. Daks 'serious leg injury' is already past the infection risk. He should be able to workout within 4 months from now. We are ~8 months away from training camp.
2. If we need money, we need to cut the fat. Get rid of stupid contracts, like Zeke and Dlaw. That nets ~$35m+/year right there. 
3. We went from averaging 36.1 points a game to 3 points a game. Name any other player on our roster thats worth 33 points per a game?
4. Coop and Zekes contracts are really easy to move on from in the next couple years. I anticipate Gallup will be here over one or both of them. 
5. Assuming we are drafting high enough to get a top tier QB, I hope we trade that for a ish ton of draft picks. Thats an easy way to save cap space as well. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Matts4313

[naptownskinsfan]

Just now, Matts4313 said:

I disagree with everything you posted here. 

1. Daks 'serious leg injury' is already past the infection risk. He should be able to workout within 4 months from now. We are ~9 months away from training camp.
2. If we need money, we need to cut the fat. Get rid of stupid contracts, like Zeke and Dlaw. That nets ~$35m+/year right there. 
3. We went from averaging 36.1 points a game to 3 points a game. Name any other player on our roster thats worth 33 points per a game?
4. Coop and Zekes contracts are really easy to move on from in the next couple years. I anticipate Gallup will be here over one or both of them. 
5. Assuming we are drafting high enough to get a top tier QB, I hope we trade that for a ish ton of draft picks. Thats an easy way to save cap space as well. 

You have a new coach.  Who knows what his feelings are about Dakota.  But let's look at the facts here.  Dakota will be 28 right when training camp starts, and he's a QB who relies heavily on his mobility.  The injury compares most to Gordon Hayward's in the NBA from 2017, and it took a year for him to get back out on the court.  Even then, he came off the bench for most of the season, and even two years removed, doesn't look like the same player.  

Is it worth the risk to give a huge contract to Dakota?  I don't know.  There is a lot running against it, and even though it's not a risk of losing his leg like Alex Smith, you can't just dismiss it offhand.  Even if you franchise the guy, there is still the cap to worry about. 

Yes, there is other fat to trim if you want to keep Dakota.  But if you don't want to keep Dakota, there are plenty of offensive options that a rookie QB can step in and do well, and be off to the races in Year 2.  And you know NFL history, the odds of doing the most bang for your buck with the salary cap is to win while a QB is on his rookie deal.  It is much harder to do once they sign a massive extension that takes up a large percentage of the cao.  

[turtle28]

The only positive I see with Washington winning with this roster is it is one of the youngest in the league. So, presumably their current young talent will develop and get better in the coming years.
 

I wouldn’t be happy if we go 6-10 or 7-9 and win the division but, as I’ve said before we may be able to trade for another team who will pick in the top 5’s current young QB - like the Jets Sam Darnold - to come in and compete with Kyle Allen for the starting job next year.
 

We can also hopefully still be able to select Kyle Trask or Zach Wilson in the teens if we do win the division. So, while we’d miss on Lawrence, Fields and probably Lance too, it’s likely we can get a QB to develop behind Allen for one year who may even come in and be better then Allen as a rookie.

The best scenario is for our young players to continue to develop, flash and play well while we are competitive the rest of the year but, we still lose out and get a top 5 pick but, at the same time I don’t think it’s the end of the world if we are picking in the teens after we would win the division and then lose in the first round of the playoffs either.

[Matts4313]

14 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

You have a new coach.  Who knows what his feelings are about Dakota.  But let's look at the facts here.  Dakota will be 28 right when training camp starts, and he's a QB who relies heavily on his mobility. 

No he doesnt. Dak is a pocket passer who has the ability to scramble. Dak runs for like ~300 yards a season. Thats less than 20 yards a game. Most the time on a few broken plays. 

He doesn not rely heavily on mobility whatsoever. 

14 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

The injury compares most to Gordon Hayward's in the NBA from 2017, and it took a year for him to get back out on the court.  Even then, he came off the bench for most of the season, and even two years removed, doesn't look like the same player.  

Stop there. Hayward plays basketball. Which involves non-stop jumping, cutting, sprint burst, etc. None of that applies to a QB. 

14 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Is it worth the risk to give a huge contract to Dakota?  I don't know.  There is a lot running against it, and even though it's not a risk of losing his leg like Alex Smith, you can't just dismiss it offhand.  Even if you franchise the guy, there is still the cap to worry about. 

This sounds like the excuses SD fans had for dumping Brees. 

14 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Yes, there is other fat to trim if you want to keep Dakota.  But if you don't want to keep Dakota, there are plenty of offensive options that a rookie QB can step in and do well, and be off to the races in Year 2. 

Everyone said the samething about Dalton. "Offense is so loaded any QB could play in it" 0-2. People said the same thing about Romo in 2014-15. "Weeden will do fine with that OL/Weapons"; went 4-12.

14 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

And you know NFL history, the odds of doing the most bang for your buck with the salary cap is to win while a QB is on his rookie deal.  It is much harder to do once they sign a massive extension that takes up a large percentage of the cao.  

I dont believe that to be true, personally. Going through the last ~20-30 years, the amount of QBs who make:

1. The playoffs

2. A championship game

3. A superbowl

4. Win a superbowl

 

All are favored to QBs on second contracts. In fact, many of them are on "highest paid NFL player (at the time)" contracts. Even if their cap hit for that particular year is low. Young, Elway, Brady, Manning x 2, etc all made superbowls after getting astronomical contracts in the cap era.  

[aceinthehouse]

The way I see it...

The better season we have this yr, with Rivera in his 1st season here.

Also , with the young talent we have.

If we can win the Division, even at 7-9 or 8-8?

We're more likely to draw Free Agents next season with our cap space, who WANT to play here.

Rather than only coming here for the money.

Because the culture is changing.

[turtle28]

@naptownskinsfan I agree with you. I don’t know how the Cowboys commit long term - or even give Dak $35 million on the franchise tag next year - not knowing if he’ll be able to play a snap for them or when in 2021. Honestly, it’s sad, but they’d be crazy to do either.

The best thing for both parties would be a one year prove it deal probably that is not as much as a franchise tag would be. I mean Dak is going to want to prove that he can be what he was before too. He’s not going to want to sign a long term deal that isn’t close to what he just turned down this past summer and the only way to prove he’s still worth that is to play on a one year prove it contract, but I can’t see the Cowboys or anyone else making that one-year prove it contract $30 million for Dak next year. He’s going to take a pay cut IMO and I think a significant one.

By March you’ll have no idea if he’s going to be able to start in September, that time frame is too close to now for him to be anywhere near 100%. My Aunt had an injury similar to Dak’s and she’s just now walking with a cane and she dislocated her ankle, tore a ligament and broke a bone in July. I think Dak’s injury was worse that hers though, bc she didn’t have a compound fracture and Dak did, didn’t he?

[naptownskinsfan]

2 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

No he doesnt. Dak is a pocket passer who has the ability to scramble. Dak runs for like ~300 yards a season. Thats less than 20 yards a game. Most the time on a few broken plays. 

He doesn not rely heavily on mobility whatsoever. 

Stop there. Hayward plays basketball. Which involves non-stop jumping, cutting, sprint burst, etc. None of that applies to a QB. 

This sounds like the excuses SD fans had for dumping Brees. 

Everyone said the samething about Dalton. "Offense is so loaded any QB could play in it" 0-2. People said the same thing about Romo in 2014-15. "Weeden will do fine with that OL/Weapons"; went 4-12.

I dont believe that to be true, personally. Going through the last ~20-30 years, the amount of QBs who make:

1. The playoffs

2. A championship game

3. A superbowl

4. Win a superbowl

 

All are favored to QBs on second contracts. In fact, many of them are on "highest paid NFL player (at the time)" contracts. Even if their cap hit for that particular year is low. Young, Elway, Brady, Manning x 2, etc all made superbowls after getting astronomical contracts in the cap era.  

Mobility is different from rushing ability.  Mobility includes pocket mobility to avoid sacks, getting out of the pocket to make throws.  

Sure, football isn't basketball, and vice-versa.  But Dakota broke the ankle that he is going to plant and pivot off of, something that even an NBA player doesn't have to contend with.  That is concerning, as well as the ability for this to affect his mobility.  

I'll concede that Super Bowls can be more favored on second contracts for some players.  However, you just named four no doubt, sure-fire Hall of Famers there.  Do you consider Prescott to be in this category?  

I couldn't tell you what decision I would make personally.  It's a tough one, and I really think they end up franchising him and kicking the can down the road another year to see how he comes back from this injury and how it affects him.  There is no way that they are going to give him a long term extension without seeing him on the field, and I just don't see them dumping him after the past 4.5 years.  At the very least, the second franchise tag is not likely to hurt the relationship between Dakota and Dallas like it did for Cousins and Washington.

[PARROTHEAD]

2 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

Would rather they do all of that without the ripping off a bunch of wins. 

It's insane to keep cheering for mediocrity. That gets you nowhere. We'll end up, again, having not enough good talent to be a dominant team...but just good enough to miss out on being in the draft spots to either a) take a generational talent on offense or b) trade out for multiple picks to stock the team. 

What happened last year needed to happen this year once we decided to nuke our 2019 first round pick from orbit. Until we moved away from the QB, I was on board with winning as many games as possible. Now? We need to pick as high as we can to either get the QB we want, or keep Allen as the starter and trade down and restock the team (and then try to find lightning in a bottle with another QB elsewhere or draft the QB in 2022). In short...to get better, faster...we need to suck more now. Which kills me as a fan, because I honestly do cheer each TD we score or good play we make. But I'm looking at this from a non-fan's viewpoint as well. And if I'm not making the playoffs with a chance for a Lombardi, I want as many options as I can get next draft.

 

You have a nice little winning program at JMU. And thats what you need to bank on for winning.

If this were the SEC. Youre making it sound like were Auburn. Recruit these few players and we will be golden. We can become a contender again. You just need to settle in on the fact that were Vandy or Kentucky. Making a good bowl (us the playoffs) every so often. And be happy like those fans are in just doing that.

Maybe 3 of the last 10 years we havent sat around here at some point during the season going "we gotta lose, we gotta lose." Last couple years we started the seasons saying that. Whens the last time the Pats, Seahawks, Steelers, NO and such drafted early? Yet they keep complete teams. So dont bank the be all, end all on the draft. Had 35 million or so  not spent this year. No trades happening. Nothing going on. Cause the FO is sitting back happily collecting checks regardless. This isnt a competitive team, its a business to make Dan money. And nothing else.

Like I said. Enjoy the win. Enjoy what you can get. Cause you aint getting much more than that for a long time.

[Matts4313]

2 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Sure, football isn't basketball, and vice-versa.  But Dakota broke the ankle that he is going to plant and pivot off of, something that even an NBA player doesn't have to contend with.  That is concerning, as well as the ability for this to affect his mobility.  

I dont think it will affect him long term. Especially if they leave the metal plates attached. It will technically be the strongest part of his body at that point. Broken bones tend to heal stronger.

2 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

I'll concede that Super Bowls can be more favored on second contracts for some players.  However, you just named four no doubt, sure-fire Hall of Famers there.  Do you consider Prescott to be in this category?  

I was just naming dudes off the top of my head, tbh. No, Dak is not a sure fire HOF. But he probably has 5 - 10 years left of prime football. He wins a ring or two and who knows. I mean, he was on pace to absolutely shatter passing records this year. He is clearly top 10 imo, and is pushing to crack that top 5. 

 

I dont think its a tough choice at all unless we are in a position to draft Trevor Lawrence.