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Giant Tidbits: Random team discussion & rumors

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A thread for chatting about Giants of the present, past, and possible future.

Since I have to start somewhere... Daniel Jones. I like him but he drives me nuts. He'll drop a perfect dime into a receiver's hands, then get sacked on the next play because he can't feel pressure coming. He'll keep a drive alive with his legs, then kill it by throwing a wounded duck right to a defender.

It's a conundrum because he's good enough to keep us in games, but not yet good enough to win many of them. At this point I honestly don't see him as part of the team's long-term future. I hope he proves me wrong.

Do you think he's still our starter in 2021, and if not, would you rather draft a new guy or trade for a veteran?

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Unless the Giants have the #1 pick, he will be our starter next season. I’m sure they will draft someone in the middle rounds 

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It sounds ridiculous but the time to show you are the real deal is so short these days that the clock is already almost up on Jones. It's not 2004 all over again. Look at what good QBs do to a franchise with Mahomes, Jackson, even Brady at his advanced age. They changed the fortunes of their franchises. You can see they are outliers, fine. But even the middle tier guys. Look what Goff did for the Rams, what Murray with Arizona, Josh Allen with the Bills, the list goes on and on. It's a team sport and the margin between winning and losing is so small BUT those guys make the plays. They force success on their teams. Jones doesn't. I hope he turns it around with the rest of the season but it's crazy how much I've soured on him throughout the course of this season so far.

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29 minutes ago, GMENNATION said:

It sounds ridiculous but the time to show you are the real deal is so short these days that the clock is already almost up on Jones. It's not 2004 all over again. Look at what good QBs do to a franchise with Mahomes, Jackson, even Brady at his advanced age. They changed the fortunes of their franchises. You can see they are outliers, fine. But even the middle tier guys. Look what Goff did for the Rams, what Murray with Arizona, Josh Allen with the Bills, the list goes on and on. It's a team sport and the margin between winning and losing is so small BUT those guys make the plays. They force success on their teams. Jones doesn't. I hope he turns it around with the rest of the season but it's crazy how much I've soured on him throughout the course of this season so far.

Yes unfortunately in this modern NFL the window to prove oneself at QB is very brief. Which is a shame because look at how both Mannings started their careers, Elway, Aikman, Favre etc etc all would have been given up on and kicked to the curb and had never developed into the HOF QB's they became.

I certainly see troubling trends with Jones. Holding the ball too long, staring down receivers, exposing the ball, but at times I've also seen absolute brilliance. He is extremely accurate when he has time and sets his feet. Way more so then Eli ever was. He can consistently hit guys right in the numbers or in stride. It's just so many times within secs of the snap he has someone strip sacking him. It's in his head. He simply cannot trust his line. Thomas has been a turnstile on his blind side.

I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

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I think honestly with Jones he's a very teeny tiny better version of Jameis Winston. He will give u those wow moments like holy cow this kids good, then INTs, fumbles, critical mistakes happen later on in the same game and then u are left scratching your head like what happened? To me he's a high level backup QB. I don't see him as the long term answer for us. Winston has ended up as the back up in New Orleans and that was to be expected because while he has top tier talent, it just doesn't translate to good decisions consistently on the field. Same description on DJ almost to a T. Dave Gettleman i think is going to be fired after this season is over. The next GM who comes in has to converse with Joe Judge and say do we think this kid can pilot this offense to the best of its abilities or not. If you have the #1 pick (which i doubt we will) u almost have to set in stone that Trevor Lawrence gets the call assuming he enters the draft. The reality is that more than likely we pick #2 or #3.. I don't know if we wanna roll the dice with Justin Fields out of Ohio State? I don't think we do and we go with that kid Sewell out of Oregon or possibly that kid Rousseau on defense. A lot of major questions will be coming after this season is over. 

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The issue with Jones is the turnovers.  Although his fumbles per drop back have improved slightly from 2019, it is still one of the highest rates in the league.  His interceptions per drop back have also increased from last season.  He has been one of the worst QBs in the NFL in terms of turnovers in the past two seasons.   Most of the other guys on the extreme ends of these graphs are no longer starters (Haskins, Winston, Rosen, etc).  It looks like the Cam experiment might be over in NE too.  You simply can't win when your QB is giving the ball away at least twice a game.

The one saving grace for Jones is that he is actually an accurate passer unlike most of those guys, and he's a good athlete.  But if he doesn't fix the turnover issue quickly, the Giants would be foolish to not take a long hard look at Trey Lance or Justin Fields even if they don't get the #1 overall pick.  It's better to call a spade a spade than to see the same pattern repeated next year and end up benching Jones for Colt McCoy after week 4.

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3 hours ago, Gmen said:

GgMo6sb.png

LjbkfKW.png

 

The issue with Jones is the turnovers.  Although his fumbles per drop back have improved slightly from 2019, it is still one of the highest rates in the league.  His interceptions per drop back have also increased from last season.  He has been one of the worst QBs in the NFL in terms of turnovers in the past two seasons.   Most of the other guys on the extreme ends of these graphs are no longer starters (Haskins, Winston, Rosen, etc).  It looks like the Cam experiment might be over in NE too.  You simply can't win when your QB is giving the ball away at least twice a game.

Interesting graph. (Bridgewater's position is better than I would have expected, while Drew Lock's is even worse.)

I really wanted to see a franchise QB in Jones, and so did a lot of fans after his miraculous debut against the Bucs. There's a ton of pressure on his shoulders and I think it gets to him in critical moments. Like @Giants4eva said, he's becoming another Winston (34 TOs through 20 games is the most of any active QB).

I'm more optimistic about the defense though. I had a good feeling about the additions of Martinez, Fackrell, and Bradberry, and they haven't disappointed. Logan Ryan is a leader who looks so natural out there I'm not sure how we ever got on without him. Hopefully we continue to add talent on the d-line.

I could really go for a good edge rusher as well. Any hot prospects for that in the '21 draft?

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5 hours ago, Gmen said:

The issue with Jones is the turnovers.  Although his fumbles per drop back have improved slightly from 2019, it is still one of the highest rates in the league.  His interceptions per drop back have also increased from last season.  He has been one of the worst QBs in the NFL in terms of turnovers in the past two seasons.   Most of the other guys on the extreme ends of these graphs are no longer starters (Haskins, Winston, Rosen, etc).  It looks like the Cam experiment might be over in NE too.  You simply can't win when your QB is giving the ball away at least twice a game.

The one saving grace for Jones is that he is actually an accurate passer unlike most of those guys, and he's a good athlete.  But if he doesn't fix the turnover issue quickly, the Giants would be foolish to not take a long hard look at Trey Lance or Justin Fields even if they don't get the #1 overall pick.  It's better to call a spade a spade than to see the same pattern repeated next year and end up benching Jones for Colt McCoy after week 4.

Honestly, that's a very easy narrative to fall back onto. His production is bad. He's on pace for 11.4 TDs on the season! He might not surpass 3,000 passing yards in a full season. That is abysmal. He just doesn't make them better, at all. Of course, this is the result of a lot of factors including the OL being a challenge and the WRs not being able to separate and learning a new offense etc. In some ways I feel bad for him but again, good QBs overcome all of that. 

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1 hour ago, GMENNATION said:

Honestly, that's a very easy narrative to fall back onto. His production is bad. He's on pace for 11.4 TDs on the season! He might not surpass 3,000 passing yards in a full season. That is abysmal. He just doesn't make them better, at all. Of course, this is the result of a lot of factors including the OL being a challenge and the WRs not being able to separate and learning a new offense etc. In some ways I feel bad for him but again, good QBs overcome all of that

I'd say elite QB's overcome it. I don't see guys like Goff, Mayfield, Cousins, Rivers, Stafford etc producing vastly better if they were leading this offense. 

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14 hours ago, Shockwave said:

I'd say elite QB's overcome it. I don't see guys like Goff, Mayfield, Cousins, Rivers, Stafford etc producing vastly better if they were leading this offense. 

Yeah I disagree here. It's not just elite QBs but you also named some QBs that are not very good at this point (Cousins, Rivers, maybe Mayfield). The rest of those guys - and many others - have multiple games where they straight up put the team on their back. Without Stafford, the Lions don't win any games. There's no way to prove these things out but I'd bet if you swapped DJ and Stafford that we'd have at least 3 more wins over the course of Jones's tenure. 

He's not the only problem on this team, but he is also not making anything better.. at all

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On 10/28/2020 at 8:09 AM, GMENNATION said:

Yeah I disagree here. It's not just elite QBs but you also named some QBs that are not very good at this point (Cousins, Rivers, maybe Mayfield). The rest of those guys - and many others - have multiple games where they straight up put the team on their back. Without Stafford, the Lions don't win any games. There's no way to prove these things out but I'd bet if you swapped DJ and Stafford that we'd have at least 3 more wins over the course of Jones's tenure. 

He's not the only problem on this team, but he is also not making anything better.. at all

I think he has made one thing better, namely the running game. He's got good speed and agility on the ground, which helped keep us in the early games when Barkley and Freeman weren't making any headway. He still leads the team in rushing yards.

But he makes our already rough o-line situation worse by staring down his first reads and seeming not to feel pressure unless it's right in his face. And as you said, he has yet to put the team on his back in elite QB fashion.

How much of the blame do we put on Jason Garrett's playcalling? Because you have to admit DJ looked better in Shurmur's scheme than he does in Garrett's.

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Should we really be surprised though? He was considered a major reach then and in hindsight it looks even worse. He’s just another guy who needs to a good cast around him. Good OL and good receivers. He’s Tannehill. 

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On 10/30/2020 at 9:46 PM, Kip Smithers said:

Should we really be surprised though? He was considered a major reach then and in hindsight it looks even worse. He’s just another guy who needs to a good cast around him. Good OL and good receivers. He’s Tannehill. 

That's a pretty good comparison with where he's at right now. Hopefully he can turn it around because we're not getting Trevor Lawrence so it's in our best interest for DJ to work out

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On 10/30/2020 at 9:46 PM, Kip Smithers said:

Should we really be surprised though? He was considered a major reach then and in hindsight it looks even worse. He’s just another guy who needs to a good cast around him. Good OL and good receivers. He’s Tannehill. 

I can see DJ being better than Tannehill but Tannehill is far closer to what DJ is than Jameis Winston. Is it asking too much for this organization to put a good team around DJ like what Tannehill has with the Titans.

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