lavar703 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 39 minutes ago, Troublez said: Yet - tanking doesn't seem to work in the NFL. I'm not sold that having a top 5 pick ensures that you hit on a qb. In fact, in the last ten years, I would wager that those selected after pick 10 have had a higher % of success. Kids being drafted to awful teams just get shattered. Rather try and win - mold the culture and set expectations. Culture is overrated. Honestly, it’s one thing I’m tired of hearing about. You know what all these so-called top culture teams have? An elite QB. How’s that Patriots culture working out without Tom Brady? You either have an elite QB or an elite defense. Culture doesn’t win games. It’s an illusion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troublez Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 22 minutes ago, lavar703 said: Culture is overrated. Honestly, it’s one thing I’m tired of hearing about. You know what all these so-called top culture teams have? An elite QB. How’s that Patriots culture working out without Tom Brady? You either have an elite QB or an elite defense. Culture doesn’t win games. It’s an illusion. We're those elite QBs drafted by organizations with a good or bad culture? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripsean21 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 20 minutes ago, lavar703 said: Culture is overrated. Honestly, it’s one thing I’m tired of hearing about. You know what all these so-called top culture teams have? An elite QB. How’s that Patriots culture working out without Tom Brady? You either have an elite QB or an elite defense. Culture doesn’t win games. It’s an illusion. Culture is the difference between two teams it’s something that you see in effort. As I said the other day if you don’t have a franchise Guy and can’t protect him your rebuilding. But the cuture effects the hit rate of your draft prospects so it is important. Look at teams that have coaches that clearly have the respect of their locker rooms their teams hit at a higher rate then teams without the culture. The franchise QB is the wildcard to changing a culture as is a great defense so saying the culture isn’t important generally the two things you mentioned are the things teams build to change theirs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troublez Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 I am just tired of the "it's cool to pee your pants" logic around tanking. Once we are mathematically eliminated from playoffs - sure I get it. But if you can work towards winning the division all the while working on chemistry..... something could happen. Especially with a good D.... However unlikely that is - I must root for that outcome rather than losing out for draft assets. It doesn't work in Football.... it just doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, Troublez said: We're those elite QBs drafted by organizations with a good or bad culture? The Saints were awful and Tom Benson was an issue and then came Drew Brees. Irsay is one of the worst owners in football and then came Peyton. The Patriots had 6 playoff appearances since 1970 before they drafted Bledsoe and then subsequently Brady. The Packers made the playoffs twice between 1968 and 1992. They got Brett Favre and the rest was history. I’m sure I could find more instances but you either win with an elite QB or an elite defense. Culture doesn’t win games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 18 minutes ago, ripsean21 said: Culture is the difference between two teams it’s something that you see in effort. As I said the other day if you don’t have a franchise Guy and can’t protect him your rebuilding. But the cuture effects the hit rate of your draft prospects so it is important. Look at teams that have coaches that clearly have the respect of their locker rooms their teams hit at a higher rate then teams without the culture. The franchise QB is the wildcard to changing a culture as is a great defense so saying the culture isn’t important generally the two things you mentioned are the things teams build to change theirs I just disagree that culture matters all that much. Would you consider Ben Rothlisberger or Tyreke Hill good culture? I think we all want the culture to improve but talent is all that matters. You either have it or you don’t. If you don’t, you aren’t winning. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 7 hours ago, PARROTHEAD said: Both set us back years. Feel better? It doesnt hurt when theyre not 1st rounders. Plus can take as many as you want, year after year without it hurting. Nobody should know better than WFT fans how important building a complete team is. Being weve got 2 SBs with backup caliber qbs. Shuler didn't set them back years. Griffin only set them back years as part of the trade they put forward to get him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 You want to change culture? Get a franchise QB and start winning games as Lavar was eluding to. Every team that changes culture usually does so when they start winning and usually that’s done when they find a good or great QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Culture is something that gets built over the course of years. Over the course of consistent winning and establishing an identity and a standard. One season of being well-below-average instead of very bad is not going to make this a winning culture. Sneaking into the postseason as the worst playoff team in history is not going to make this a winning culture. As @turtle28 said earlier in the thread, we had one-off postseason trips in 2012 and 2015 that meant absolutely nothing moving forward — and those teams were significantly better than the group we have now. Winning the division in a year where our two chief rivals are decimated by injury means little more than claiming the crown of King of Turd Mountain. What does it mean moving forward? We haven’t shown any ability to compete with decent teams, and the fact that we might suck less than the rest of division is pretty cold comfort in terms of the position we’ll be in next year. In my opinion, the top two QBs and the franchise LT are going to be out of reach for us, so I’m pretty ambivalent at this point about what happens from here on out this season. I suppose winning 6 games and making the playoffs is better than winning 4-5 and somehow still being so bad we can’t even beat out the injury ravaged Eagles — but I have no illusions that winning the division will somehow be some tremendous milestone in the process culture creation. I’ve been watching this franchise far too long to be that naive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PARROTHEAD Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 35 minutes ago, Woz said: Shuler didn't set them back years. Griffin only set them back years as part of the trade they put forward to get him. All those playoff wins and super bowl appearances post-Shuler slipped my mind. 😋 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Troublez said: Yet - tanking doesn't seem to work in the NFL. I'm not sold that having a top 5 pick ensures that you hit on a qb. In fact, in the last ten years, I would wager that those selected after pick 10 have had a higher % of success. Kids being drafted to awful teams just get shattered. 2007 1-10 1.01 JaMarcus Russell 11-32 1.22 Brady Quinn 2008 1-10 1.03 Matt Ryan 11-32 1.18 Joe Flacco 2009 1-10 1.01 Matt Stafford 1.05 Mark Sanchez 11-32 1.17 Josh Freeman 2010 1-10 1.01 Sam Bradford 11-32 1.25 Tim Tebow 2011 1-10 1.01 Cam Newton 1.08 Jake Locker 1.10 Blaine Gabbert 11-32 1.12 Christian Ponder 2012 1-10 1.01 Andrew Luck 1.02 Robert Griffin 1.08 Ryan Tannehill 11-32 1.22 Brandon Weeden 2013 1-10 <none> 11-32 1.16 EJ Manuel 2014 1-10 1.03 Blake Bortles 11-32 1.22 Johnny Manziel 1.32 Teddy Bridgewater 2015 1-10 1.01 Jameis Winston 1.02 Marcus Mariota 11-32 <none> 2016 1-10 1.01 Jared Goff 1.02 Carson Wentz 11-32 1.26 Paxton Lynch 2017 1-10 1.02 Mitch Trubisky 1.10 Patrick Mahomes 11-32 1.12 Deshaun Watson 2018 1-10 1.01 Baker Mayfield 1.03 Sam Darnold 1.07 Josh Allen 1.10 Josh Rosen 11-32 1.32 Lamar Jackson 2019 (not included in count) 1-10 1.01 Kyler Murray (leaning to success) 1.06 Daniel Jones (leaning to failure) 11-32 1.15 Dwayne Haskins (leaning to failure) So, I marked Ryan Tannehill and Teddy Bridgewater as failures because they were not long term successes with the team that drafted them. In Bridgewater's case, it wasn't his fault, but them's the breaks (oof, didn't mean that pun). Anyway Picks 1-10: 10 successes, 12 failures = 45.5% success rate Picks 11-32: 4 successes, 8 failures = 33.3% success rate Oh, and if you want to do after the first round, it's MUCH worse, even if you include a bunch of recent successes like Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott. Heck, you could probably include Colin Kaepernick and Andy Dalton in there as well ... still a disaster field. Edited November 1, 2020 by Woz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 19 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said: All those playoff wins and super bowl appearances post-Shuler slipped my mind. 😋 Shuler was almost immediately outplayed by Gus Frerotte who, until Kirk Cousins, was the longest tenured quarterback in Washington in the modern free agency era. They never went to the playoffs with Frerotte. I am pretty sure the number of starting QBs for Washington since 1994 is definitely over 30, could be pushing 40 now. They have never had a franchise QB of the caliber needed in the modern era truly to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PARROTHEAD Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 And to think... This coming draft wed be in position for Fields and Leatherwood while cheering to win games. But getting a 99 jersey was just to important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said: And to think... This coming draft wed be in position for Fields and Leatherwood while cheering to win games. But getting a 99 jersey was just to important. God this is dumb. If you think giving up Chase Young is worth getting Leatherwood who’s not even remotely close to the best OL in his class then I don’t know what to tell you? You didn’t like the Chase Young pick for god knows what reason but trading that pick away was never the answer. And the guys most of you trade back guys wanted to trade back for can’t get on the field. One of them in Andrew Thomas got benched already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PARROTHEAD Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, lavar703 said: God this is dumb. If you think giving up Chase Young is worth getting Leatherwood who’s not even remotely close to the best OL in his class then I don’t know what to tell you? You didn’t like the Chase Young pick for god knows what reason but trading that pick away was never the answer. And the guys most of you trade back guys wanted to trade back for can’t get on the field. One of them in Andrew Thomas got benched already. When a team has NOTHING. Chase became a prime trade piece to gather a wealth of talent. We could have been sitting on the 3 spot and Justin Fields right now. With Menshew out with a broke thumb to help secure a premium spot. Plus our natural pick. Plus 2 more picks next year towards building this team. Kerrigan still had a couple years left of quality play in him. So Kerrigan was pitched to the curb all because someone else was a bit better. While everything else was left to suffer. You want to talk dumb. With my way were sitting on Fields and cheering to win. While your way youre begging to be a loser to get what I already offered up on a silver platter and got refused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.