What is the thought process of you Season Tankers for this year? I'm truly dumbfounded...

[Woz]

1 minute ago, PARROTHEAD said:

When a team has NOTHING. Chase became a prime trade piece to gather a wealth of talent. We could have been sitting on the 3 spot and Justin Fields right now. With Menshew out with a broke thumb to help secure a premium spot. Plus our natural pick. Plus 2 more picks next year towards building this team. Kerrigan still had a couple years left of quality play in him.

So Kerrigan was pitched to the curb all because someone else was a bit better. While everything else was left to suffer.

You want to talk dumb. With my way were sitting on Fields and cheering to win. While your way youre begging to be a loser to get what I already offered up on a silver platter and got refused.

Only three questions:

1. Who trades up?
2. Why do they trade up?
3. What do you think the return would have been?

Because I don't think it was a fruitful a market as you thought.

[PARROTHEAD]

Just now, Woz said:

Only three questions:

1. Who trades up?
2. Why do they trade up?
3. What do you think the return would have been?

Because I don't think it was a fruitful a market as you thought.

It was reported that offers of 3 1st were made. And one the Jags.

Why them? Because they thought Menshew had potential. Or because the Kahns are like Dan, and just want a high profile name for bank while the team stays complacent.

[lavar703]

5 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

When a team has NOTHING. Chase became a prime trade piece to gather a wealth of talent. We could have been sitting on the 3 spot and Justin Fields right now. With Menshew out with a broke thumb to help secure a premium spot. Plus our natural pick. Plus 2 more picks next year towards building this team. Kerrigan still had a couple years left of quality play in him.

So Kerrigan was pitched to the curb all because someone else was a bit better. While everything else was left to suffer.

You want to talk dumb. With my way were sitting on Fields and cheering to win. While your way youre begging to be a loser to get what I already offered up on a silver platter and got refused.

 

Wait a second, you think Chase is only a “bit better” than Kerrigan? They’re on different planets when it comes to their talent. It’s not even remotely the same thing. Ones a game wrecker and the other is a good pass rusher. 
 

Kerrigan was pitched to the curb because he’s 32-years old going into a contract year where had he played well and dealt away the opportunity for Young we’d either be paying him big money or letting him walk. Passing on Young was never going to happen and it had nothing to do with “Selling more jerseys”. It had to do with the fact that this team had no game changing talent on defense and Kerrigan had been a part of that for 10 years. 

[PARROTHEAD]

3 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

Wait a second, you think Chase is only a “bit better” than Kerrigan? They’re on different planets when it comes to their talent. It’s not even remotely the same thing. Ones a game wrecker and the other is a good pass rusher. 
 

Kerrigan was pitched to the curb because he’s 32-years old going into a contract year where had he played well and dealt away the opportunity for Young we’d either be paying him big money or letting him walk. Passing on Young was never going to happen and it had nothing to do with “Selling more jerseys”. It had to do with the fact that this team had no game changing talent on defense and Kerrigan had been a part of that for 10 years. 

We can keep going back and forth on the matter. Neither one of us willing to give up an inch. And we both know that.

But right now. Both our plans are out the window. And they aint coming back.

So instead of "what was done." What do you think "Can be done" from here on out this season?

[lavar703]

7 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

We can keep going back and forth on the matter. Neither one of us willing to give up an inch. And we both know that.

But right now. Both our plans are out the window. And they aint coming back.

So instead of "what was done." What do you think "Can be done" from here on out this season?

Understandable and you’re correct as well. We aren’t giving an inch lol.

What can be done? I’m not sure really because I have no clue what they’re doing? I mean, I’m extremely confused by the whole thing. Why keep Kerrigan if he’s not going to re-sign in the off-season? Why aren’t we moving Scherff if we don’t want to pay him? Why is Haskins still on this roster if the coach doesn’t want him? Why hasn’t Chase Rhouillier been given an extension? I’d love to give you an answer but I have no idea what they’re doing...

[Woz]

• 12 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

What do you think "Can be done" from here on out this season?

Can be done?

• Rebuild Haskins' trade value
• Plan for the future by offloading as many expiring players that they can
• Also, offload players like Davis Sr. for anything they can get (conditional 7ths work)

Will be done?

• Make a pointless and likely futile for the division crown
• and if they end up as King of Turd Mountain, host a playoff game so they can get blown out on their own field
• Screw up free agency by focusing on the wrong players at the wrong positions

[Thaiphoon]

5 hours ago, Woz said:

Shuler didn't set them back years. Griffin only set them back years as part of the trade they put forward to get him.

And why did we put together a trade? Because we needed a QB and needed to move up and the Rams were selling the pick.

Had we just lost a few more games, we still don't hit on Griffin...BUT...guess what? We also don't mortgage the future either. IIRC we could've picked Luck had we lost 2 more games. 

To the naysayers:

Yes. You aren't going to hit on every pick.

But that is true whether you pick 1st, 21st, 31st, 101st.

What the higher draft pick does is allow your scouting department the OPTION to pick from a wider range of players.

Yes, winning helps build culture. I firmly believe that. But it only helps. Know what also helps? Better talent.

Reed Doughty was a good example. A guy you could build a culture around. His tackling was great.

But his overall talent was not. 

While I would love a whole team of Reed Doughtys (at each position) I'm not going to win very many games with them. I need better talent to do that.

Scouting helps me identify the talent. But that's not going to help me if the guy we wanted goes 1 or 2 picks before us.

I understand the whole "the division is ripe for the taking" but it's a mirage.

This team is not set up for long-term success. We can't even establish a culture when our coaching staff can't decide if this is a "evaluation year" or the "go for gold year". Because we sure as hell didn't set ourselves up to do anything this year by the way we approached FA and the first 3 weeks of the season. Switching gears now to run for the division is like the squirrel changing his mind in the middle of a busy roadway. Doesn't work out well.

Yes, picking top 5 is not a guarantee that you will turn your team around. That's why you need a good scouting dept. and coaching staff. But what it does is allow them to get the guys they wanted rather than plan B, or C, or D.

And the flipside is very relevant. A poor or mediocre team like ours, making a late season run and "winning the division" hasn't helped us long-term. In fact, for poor/mediocre teams that don't have a lot of talent (especially at QB), it hardly ever works.

Win the division with THIS team? We pick 19th at the earliest. That means that 18 other teams that most likely have better rosters, get to pick ahead of us. And the only reason for that is because the OTHER 3 teams in the division were bigger piles of steaming poo than we are. That's no accomplishment. And that's not indicative of the team's culture changing. It's more of a win by default (so to speak). 

Offense

No QB long term

OL sucks

We have 1 functioning WR that can do anything

No TE

We can't seem to stick to a RB

Defense

DL? is set

LB? Suckiest unit on this team

CBs? Actually not too bad.

S? Yeah...results are mixed.

 

How people think this is a roster set up for long term success, I'll never know.

[Woz]

23 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Win the division with THIS team? We pick 19th at the earliest. That means that 18 other teams that most likely have better rosters, get to pick ahead of us. And the only reason for that is because the OTHER 3 teams in the division were bigger piles of steaming poo than we are. That's no accomplishment. And that's not indicative of the team's culture changing. It's more of a win by default (so to speak). 

Offense

No QB long term

Just to tag off of this, I went through the draft order as it is right now and marked down whether a team needed a QB or not.

 

Top 18 (non playoff teams)

1. NY Jets = absolutely
2. NY Giants = I would say yes, but I wonder if Gettleman will be able to swallow his pride ... of course, he could be fired so ...
3. Jacksonville = when your roster is Gardner Minshew, Mike Glennon, and Jake Luton and you're picking 3rd, you need a QB
4. Miami (by way of Houston) = no, just drafted Tua
5. Dallas = will depend solely on what the Jones's want to do with Prescott. I don't see how they can franchise him again, but I don't think he'll accept a deal they'll offer
6. Atlanta = no, they've got problems but Matt Ryan ain't one of them ... new coaching staff could change their mind, but I doubt it
7. Washington = yup ... but in this scenario, they aren't 7th so ... moving on
8. LA Chargers = no, just drafted Herbert
9. New England = a place where the Patriots' faithful don't remember being: top ten and in desperate need of a QB (haven't really been here since 1992)
10. Minnesota = I'll just say yes and move on
11. Cincinnati = no, just drafted Burrow
12. Carolina = probably not as Bridgewater is under contract for two more years, but maybe if someone fell?
13. Detroit = still hanging onto Stafford, but maybe this is a place where a guy like Trey Lance ends up?
14. Denver = I don't know if the Broncos are ready to throw in the towel on Lock, but things aren't great out there. They do have Brett Rypien, so probably not?
15. San Francisco = is the Jimmy G show ending?
16. Miami (natural pick) = still no
17. Las Vegas = John Gruden gets his man? Probably not at 17, but if you're Derek Carr, it cannot be a comfortable seat.
18. Chicago = completely out of position, but the Mitch Trubisky era is over and they only have the ridiculously overpriced Nick Foles (courtesy of a trade in 2020)

 

So, if they were to stumble into the playoffs, they would be basically committed to Allen/Haskins (I assume they finally cut bait on the millstone that is the Alex Smith contract). Thus they'd trade Haskins for a conditional seventh, pick up some random vet (Joe Flacco? Ryan Fitzpatrick), and ride into the 2021 season with a pile of dog doodoo for an offense.

 

BUT CULTURE!

[ripsean21]

8 hours ago, Woz said:

Just to tag off of this, I went through the draft order as it is right now and marked down whether a team needed a QB or not.

 

Top 18 (non playoff teams)

1. NY Jets = absolutely
2. NY Giants = I would say yes, but I wonder if Gettleman will be able to swallow his pride ... of course, he could be fired so ...
3. Jacksonville = when your roster is Gardner Minshew, Mike Glennon, and Jake Luton and you're picking 3rd, you need a QB
4. Miami (by way of Houston) = no, just drafted Tua
5. Dallas = will depend solely on what the Jones's want to do with Prescott. I don't see how they can franchise him again, but I don't think he'll accept a deal they'll offer
6. Atlanta = no, they've got problems but Matt Ryan ain't one of them ... new coaching staff could change their mind, but I doubt it
7. Washington = yup ... but in this scenario, they aren't 7th so ... moving on
8. LA Chargers = no, just drafted Herbert
9. New England = a place where the Patriots' faithful don't remember being: top ten and in desperate need of a QB (haven't really been here since 1992)
10. Minnesota = I'll just say yes and move on
11. Cincinnati = no, just drafted Burrow
12. Carolina = probably not as Bridgewater is under contract for two more years, but maybe if someone fell?
13. Detroit = still hanging onto Stafford, but maybe this is a place where a guy like Trey Lance ends up?
14. Denver = I don't know if the Broncos are ready to throw in the towel on Lock, but things aren't great out there. They do have Brett Rypien, so probably not?
15. San Francisco = is the Jimmy G show ending?
16. Miami (natural pick) = still no
17. Las Vegas = John Gruden gets his man? Probably not at 17, but if you're Derek Carr, it cannot be a comfortable seat.
18. Chicago = completely out of position, but the Mitch Trubisky era is over and they only have the ridiculously overpriced Nick Foles (courtesy of a trade in 2020)

 

So, if they were to stumble into the playoffs, they would be basically committed to Allen/Haskins (I assume they finally cut bait on the millstone that is the Alex Smith contract). Thus they'd trade Haskins for a conditional seventh, pick up some random vet (Joe Flacco? Ryan Fitzpatrick), and ride into the 2021 season with a pile of dog doodoo for an offense.

 

BUT CULTURE!

Bet the chargers wish they knew how to win!!! How about Atlanta? Because they have continuously lost with franchise guys. To say culture isn’t important for every example y’all can’t give of the bad top pick working I can give a gem counter and example of the top pick bad culture failing. Stafford man that guys a beast!!! Carson Palmer. Cam for years they struggled and when they got into their window their idiot GM let a all people CB leave. And Cams body broke down by the time they finally learned how to win.
Look at Buffalo fighting these last few years just to build a winning culture. Imagine them establishing that before Allen and them having more pieces around him I feel like he’s further along. Drafting a QB early while it teaches them grit and perseverance they will learn that on a good team against the best teams!!! I’m sorry building a complete roster seems to have more sustained results then drafting a guy to the worse team. If we win 4 or 5 games that’s exactly what we are. Why route to be worse? Because we can’t find a player that turns out better then a guy picked higher? It happens every year in every class.

Alex Smith took so long to learn how to win by the time he started winning his ability to really get better physically was done. Brady was on a good team!!! Big Ben good team good culture. Russell, Rodgers, Lock is on a team familiar with winning on defense and have put pieces around him. He’s growing. For every top 5 pick I can probably show you a better situation with a guy on a team that didn’t tank or even go that far. Do we ever doubt a QB NE selects or even player? No. But we’re actually taking those type of steps drafting competing week after week with a lesser talent. So yes I believe a stacked roster with their guy they can outperform those guys on the teams that will more then likely select them. 

[ripsean21]

18 hours ago, lavar703 said:

I just disagree that culture matters all that much. Would you consider Ben Rothlisberger or Tyreke Hill good culture? I think we all want the culture to improve but talent is all that matters. You either have it or you don’t. If you don’t, you aren’t winning. 

I wouldn’t consider them good culture but do I think they are what they are on any other roster outside of 3 or 4 teams? No that is where it matters. Andy Reid has always shown he can for the most part keep those personalities under wraps and honestly he took the longest hardest road to a SB win because a lot of those personalities. Same with Tomlin and Bellichek. They do take the risk on a all world talent but they also did the homework and have 50plus others who up the company those guys keep. You are 100% right the talent has too be there. But coaching that talent up and getting them to buy in matters. AB lost it while Pittsburgh was winning. Not only that they were in a window. His talent was hurting the culture and they dumped him. 
We all loved Trent!!! He is a monster!!! Our OL sucks. But we don’t look any worse as a unit and he’s not on our bench or just refusing to be here. I’ve seen our line in worse shape then it is currently with Trent. And I also didn’t see San Frans OL become the best with his addition. I fact their QB has gotten hurt multiple times and both times were on plays Trent missed the inside pressure. Talent is great when they buy in.
Ask Tennessee if culture doesn’t matter because for better or worse they win or lose because they play their game they execute their plan. That coach is a beast!!! That team god they remind me of him on the field. They just do their jobs. These players here saw their coach getting bashed while he was just trying to survive and he made sacrifices and they saw a result. That’s a seed and effort and hard work can always beat a top heavy talent. Depth matters. 
 

Year after year defensive fronts make rosters with less go further in January because their fresh and they impose their will. So while chase maybe doesnt have 10 sacks like some believe he should that guy is constantly disrupting plays. And he’s only trending up. Sweat man that guy is further then I thought he’d be and I had him as a top 7 prospect in his class closer to Allen and Bosa then anyone else I remember posting. These DT’s we have a Terry and Gibson and McKissic are wildcards. Logan has outdone my expectation for him as well and he seems to believe he’s just getting started. By seasons end with confidence we have no idea what we can be. Ask yourself thin in January we sneak in why can’t this defense be one of the toughest outs? If a team can’t run and our DB’s come together as they’ve shown signs of since Fullers return why can’t we?
Look at the dolphins. They traded a 1st round pick the next year and got better. They won a game with their rookie going under 50% and for 1940’s passing yards. But their culture was started last year when we thought they were tanking they clicked. We are showing a flip idc who it’s against. If this team goes anywhere it’s not going to hurt us. The bears don’t stop competing just because they can’t find a QB. But what happens when they do? They are there. If someone is there you like you take him. And if it doesn’t flash and sustain move on. There’s not one player starting for this team I’d want to see elsewhere so we could hopefully one day make Haskins be what he’s not willing to be for himself.

 The Seahawks locked up a guy they replaced because he was beaten out. Unexpected but if Allen is our best chance play him. He beat out guys here and in Carolina. Who knows what confidence and comfort does for him. And what could we get from another team if we luck ourselves into a gem? What if we get our guy and Move Allen for a two because that guy showed he belongs? If we look for the bad we will surely find it. But what if it does work out for us this time?

[ripsean21]

9 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

And why did we put together a trade? Because we needed a QB and needed to move up and the Rams were selling the pick.

Had we just lost a few more games, we still don't hit on Griffin...BUT...guess what? We also don't mortgage the future either. IIRC we could've picked Luck had we lost 2 more games. 

To the naysayers:

Yes. You aren't going to hit on every pick.

But that is true whether you pick 1st, 21st, 31st, 101st.

What the higher draft pick does is allow your scouting department the OPTION to pick from a wider range of players.

Yes, winning helps build culture. I firmly believe that. But it only helps. Know what also helps? Better talent.

Reed Doughty was a good example. A guy you could build a culture around. His tackling was great.

But his overall talent was not. 

While I would love a whole team of Reed Doughtys (at each position) I'm not going to win very many games with them. I need better talent to do that.

Scouting helps me identify the talent. But that's not going to help me if the guy we wanted goes 1 or 2 picks before us.

I understand the whole "the division is ripe for the taking" but it's a mirage.

This team is not set up for long-term success. We can't even establish a culture when our coaching staff can't decide if this is a "evaluation year" or the "go for gold year". Because we sure as hell didn't set ourselves up to do anything this year by the way we approached FA and the first 3 weeks of the season. Switching gears now to run for the division is like the squirrel changing his mind in the middle of a busy roadway. Doesn't work out well.

Yes, picking top 5 is not a guarantee that you will turn your team around. That's why you need a good scouting dept. and coaching staff. But what it does is allow them to get the guys they wanted rather than plan B, or C, or D.

And the flipside is very relevant. A poor or mediocre team like ours, making a late season run and "winning the division" hasn't helped us long-term. In fact, for poor/mediocre teams that don't have a lot of talent (especially at QB), it hardly ever works.

Win the division with THIS team? We pick 19th at the earliest. That means that 18 other teams that most likely have better rosters, get to pick ahead of us. And the only reason for that is because the OTHER 3 teams in the division were bigger piles of steaming poo than we are. That's no accomplishment. And that's not indicative of the team's culture changing. It's more of a win by default (so to speak). 

Offense

No QB long term

OL sucks

We have 1 functioning WR that can do anything

No TE

We can't seem to stick to a RB

Defense

DL? is set

LB? Suckiest unit on this team

CBs? Actually not too bad.

S? Yeah...results are mixed.

 

How people think this is a roster set up for long term success, I'll never know.

We aren’t set up for long term sucsess 8 weeks into year one without a preseason and TC. But players already look to be in better position making plays moreso then years past. Tackling is light years better. We’re not a one half team Atleast since Haskins was benched. And I see players developing who weren’t given opportunity before. So no we aren’t on a contender level I think every poster here knows that. But the foundation we’ve always skipped under previous regimes and their failures are showing up. Fundamentals are clearly here. How many players are on IR? Even without TC and a normal offseason I see guys in shape I see guys improving in their execution and their assignments are getting better. Last year we had 40plus million in cap on IR. Trent sat.

This year with what you could say a way less established roster we actually look better. So I’m sorry to all of y’all we still aren’t a contender. But if we are supposed to be this early I promise no staff coach owner or player will ever bring what we want because we’re not being honest. What good is a talented roster if the players don’t tackle well? I’ve seen us have good offenses and a QB we could win with and we couldn’t tackle. We still lost. This job was something that needed to be torn completely down and redone. So yes our talent level is less. But RR and staff are telling these guys if they tackle if they do the extra if they listen they will see results. And they are. Patience is hard here because we naturally wait for Snyder to pull a Snyder. But we have to look at what’s happened and I’m sorry the fact Snyder let RR bench Haskins tells me that currently everyone is on the same page. Without that all those pieces you mentioned we don’t have couldn’t fix what we’re showing we do atleast have. 
 

Thia I want you and Woz Turtle Knight Lavar everyone I want to see us here celebrating all the things we haven’t had under Snyder to date. But I think we as fans are so use to this team beating us up we’re actually scared to celebrate the things we know have to be done first for anything else to be built. Small steps forward are still steps

[Thaiphoon]

40 minutes ago, ripsean21 said:

We aren’t set up for long term sucsess 8 weeks into year one without a preseason and TC. But players already look to be in better position making plays moreso then years past. Tackling is light years better. We’re not a one half team Atleast since Haskins was benched. And I see players developing who weren’t given opportunity before. So no we aren’t on a contender level I think every poster here knows that. But the foundation we’ve always skipped under previous regimes and their failures are showing up. Fundamentals are clearly here. How many players are on IR? Even without TC and a normal offseason I see guys in shape I see guys improving in their execution and their assignments are getting better. Last year we had 40plus million in cap on IR. Trent sat.

This year with what you could say a way less established roster we actually look better. So I’m sorry to all of y’all we still aren’t a contender. But if we are supposed to be this early I promise no staff coach owner or player will ever bring what we want because we’re not being honest. What good is a talented roster if the players don’t tackle well? I’ve seen us have good offenses and a QB we could win with and we couldn’t tackle. We still lost. This job was something that needed to be torn completely down and redone. So yes our talent level is less. But RR and staff are telling these guys if they tackle if they do the extra if they listen they will see results. And they are. Patience is hard here because we naturally wait for Snyder to pull a Snyder. But we have to look at what’s happened and I’m sorry the fact Snyder let RR bench Haskins tells me that currently everyone is on the same page. Without that all those pieces you mentioned we don’t have couldn’t fix what we’re showing we do atleast have. 
 

Thia I want you and Woz Turtle Knight Lavar everyone I want to see us here celebrating all the things we haven’t had under Snyder to date. But I think we as fans are so use to this team beating us up we’re actually scared to celebrate the things we know have to be done first for anything else to be built. Small steps forward are still steps

You see, I agree with pretty much all of this. In my post this past offseason I laid out the 3-4 year strategy to getting us to be a contender. And in year 1, it was back to basics (IIRC). Which means getting more out of the talent you already have on the roster and evaluating what you have so you can build on what/who is working out. 

That being said...I think when I see people say "coaches shouldn't tank" or "players want to win". Yes. I agree. I WANT our players to fight hard and...now that we don't have a franchise QB on this roster anymore...I want them to lose out. I want to see them lose close games. Games where we see progression of the players and the development of their talent. The development of a "never quit" attitude. But ultimately games where we lose 23-21, or 17-16 and we end up with the #1 pick. 

Not only will it help us restock the talent in the draft. But it does quite a bit more as well. The F.O. can't pretend "hey we won the division. We've got a playoff roster". Because THAT will result in keeping guys we should be kicking to the curb. And before anyone argues with me about "well, this F.O. knows we don't have playoff level talent" I will submit to you that nothing has really changed in the F.O... so until I see change, I'm going to continue to think they will do foolish things in terms of personnel.

So yeah, I don't want them winning the division like this, with this mediocre (poor in some spots) roster, just because the other teams have historically bad seasons. It will result in this team learning the wrong lessons about how to win long-term.

 

I'll give you a personal story that (kinda relates to this but also doesn't match up 1:1). 

My daughter is a very bright young girl. She is an excellent reader and an amazing speller. Last year she was the winner of her 2nd grade class' spelling contest. And as such, she was to represent her class in the 2nd and 3rd grade spelling bee (both grades competing against each other). She had like 2 months to study the words and do like I asked her to do (study a few each day, etc...). 

2 weeks out, she hadn't done anything. I sat with her each night for an hour before bedtime and went over the words. To which she still resisted because it was "boring".

Day of the bee, she's up there as one of the 16 representatives. The rules were a killer (if you start to spell a word and you say an incorrect letter, you cannot go back and fix it - you're finished <--- ouch!)

One by one, the other kids missed their words. And she kept going. All the 2nd grade students went out. And she was left against four 3rd graders. One by one they went down until it was her and a 3rd grader.

I'm guessing you're betting she won?

Nope. She messed up on a word she knows backwards and forwards. I could tell she was getting tired of the whole thing (it was like 90 minutes at that point) and she slipped up and said a wrong letter.

So she got 2nd place. I was extremely proud. My friends asked me if I was sad she didn't win, but I said "yeah. But she also should've applied herself more. I don't want her thinking that she can just try something new...not prepare for it...not get more talented at it...and then expect to win every time. Failure is sometimes the best teacher."

So yeah, I want our team to fight their guts out and try hard and develop. But I also don't want our F.O. to say "hey Bostic got that one INT that sealed the division for us, let's keep him around because we're a playoff roster with him."

We have poo for an offense and LBs on defense. We need to recognize that the higher we pick the more options we have to choose from in the players that are available in the draft. And also, the more options we have to trade down and grab more picks (including a 1st rounder in 2021 and 2022 if we end up picking 2nd and we don't like Fields). 

This is a big reason why...once we declared that our franchise QB is not on this roster...that I want to see us lose out. Had we been convinced that Haskins could develop into one, I'd be 180 degrees the opposite direction. Not now. We need to rebuild the team AND get a QB. And if we can't get him in 2021, we need to position ourselves (trade downs that net us 2022 picks) so that we can get the QB then.

[ripsean21]

25 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

You see, I agree with pretty much all of this. In my post this past offseason I laid out the 3-4 year strategy to getting us to be a contender. And in year 1, it was back to basics (IIRC). Which means getting more out of the talent you already have on the roster and evaluating what you have so you can build on what/who is working out. 

That being said...I think when I see people say "coaches shouldn't tank" or "players want to win". Yes. I agree. I WANT our players to fight hard and...now that we don't have a franchise QB on this roster anymore...I want them to lose out. I want to see them lose close games. Games where we see progression of the players and the development of their talent. The development of a "never quit" attitude. But ultimately games where we lose 23-21, or 17-16 and we end up with the #1 pick. 

Not only will it help us restock the talent in the draft. But it does quite a bit more as well. The F.O. can't pretend "hey we won the division. We've got a playoff roster". Because THAT will result in keeping guys we should be kicking to the curb. And before anyone argues with me about "well, this F.O. knows we don't have playoff level talent" I will submit to you that nothing has really changed in the F.O... so until I see change, I'm going to continue to think they will do foolish things in terms of personnel.

So yeah, I don't want them winning the division like this, with this mediocre (poor in some spots) roster, just because the other teams have historically bad seasons. It will result in this team learning the wrong lessons about how to win long-term.

 

I'll give you a personal story that (kinda relates to this but also doesn't match up 1:1). 

My daughter is a very bright young girl. She is an excellent reader and an amazing speller. Last year she was the winner of her 2nd grade class' spelling contest. And as such, she was to represent her class in the 2nd and 3rd grade spelling bee (both grades competing against each other). She had like 2 months to study the words and do like I asked her to do (study a few each day, etc...). 

2 weeks out, she hadn't done anything. I sat with her each night for an hour before bedtime and went over the words. To which she still resisted because it was "boring".

Day of the bee, she's up there as one of the 16 representatives. The rules were a killer (if you start to spell a word and you say an incorrect letter, you cannot go back and fix it - you're finished <--- ouch!)

One by one, the other kids missed their words. And she kept going. All the 2nd grade students went out. And she was left against four 3rd graders. One by one they went down until it was her and a 3rd grader.

I'm guessing you're betting she won?

Nope. She messed up on a word she knows backwards and forwards. I could tell she was getting tired of the whole thing (it was like 90 minutes at that point) and she slipped up and said a wrong letter.

So she got 2nd place. I was extremely proud. My friends asked me if I was sad she didn't win, but I said "yeah. But she also should've applied herself more. I don't want her thinking that she can just try something new...not prepare for it...not get more talented at it...and then expect to win every time. Failure is sometimes the best teacher."

So yeah, I want our team to fight their guts out and try hard and develop. But I also don't want our F.O. to say "hey Bostic got that one INT that sealed the division for us, let's keep him around because we're a playoff roster with him."

We have poo for an offense and LBs on defense. We need to recognize that the higher we pick the more options we have to choose from in the players that are available in the draft. And also, the more options we have to trade down and grab more picks (including a 1st rounder in 2021 and 2022 if we end up picking 2nd and we don't like Fields). 

This is a big reason why...once we declared that our franchise QB is not on this roster...that I want to see us lose out. Had we been convinced that Haskins could develop into one, I'd be 180 degrees the opposite direction. Not now. We need to rebuild the team AND get a QB. And if we can't get him in 2021, we need to position ourselves (trade downs that net us 2022 picks) so that we can get the QB then.

That’s a awesome story about your daughter I completely agree losing is the best teacher!!! I also completely agree about keeping a player because he made one play that meant something in a ultimately meaningless accomplishment. While it was a building block you have to stay true to you evaluation. And the thing is when/if we do get good we will have to make those Bostic scenarios with guys we are actually building to get there with. 
 

As you said we can improve inside our offensive system while admitting we legit need two starters on the OL. Maybe just one IF Charles shows he can fill it. Huge gamble because he can’t even make it through a 1/4 currently. I am with you on the state of the roster. I am also with you on the fact the higher the pick the better we can do for every example given and I support any of those options. 
 

I just actually think this staff sees this team day in and day out and maybe they feel like the growth their showing maybe the depth of this football team is a lot closer outside of the starting level players were missing. I’d be elated to have Fields and he’s the guy I want the least of the top 3 even though a smarter man would def chose him over Lance. Or maybe someone who isn’t as bold is probably a better word. And as you said if we traded back and got a haul man that’s right there sounds like a dream come true.

These things are why I think we need to move on from Ryan for the right price. I think the value in comp could entice me to move knowing we could have another chance to infuse youth and talent that we plan to have if we compete. I just have a hard time looking at the schedule and our staff and not thinking we won’t win more then we want. So really this is more about being honest with where their going. But man if we could get more picks we could get these meanigless wins as we’ve called them and still establish a culture and still keep doing what we are doing best as of late. 
 

btw your life examples to your points are awesome!!! It’s how all my friends convert football to life lessons for me in my personal life 😂😂😂

Edited November 2, 2020 by ripsean21

[aceinthehouse]

Most assume since Haskins isn't working out, that we should tank for a top pick.

Just because Allen is an UDFA doesn't mean he isn't the guy.

We don't need to find a franchise QB, with a 1st Rd pick.

We just need to find a QB, that can move the ball affectively, put pts on the board & let this defense go after QB's.

If Allen can cut down on his turnovers which is easier said, than done.

We may just have our guy. Yes, he needs to showcase this over the rest of the season. But if we win the Division even by going 8-8 or 7-9?

A) It's a huge improvement from last year.

B)He's winning Divisional games, which is the upmost importance.

C)We can build off that for next year, whether we're picking 5th or 20th.

Plus, if Allen shows he's the guy, it's one less resource we will need to address & we can focus on other positions in the off-season.

Let's see how this all plays out.

 

[Woz]

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

Bet the chargers wish they knew how to win!!!

Bet the Chargers would rather better luck on their offensive linemen not getting wracked with injuries year after year.

Most years, they've been competitive, but ultimately second in the division behind either the Broncos or the Chiefs.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

How about Atlanta? Because they have continuously lost with franchise guys.

All they needed was for Kyle Allen to remember that he had Devonta Freeman rushing for 6+ yards a pop (and sprinkle in some Tevin Coleman) to salt away the Super Bowl. At the end of the third quarter (the Patriots had just scored a touchdown, but Gostkowski missed the extra point), it was 28-9. The Falcons received the ball at the Patriots 41 because of a failed onsides kick attempt. There was 2:05 on the clock.

They passed it three times and ran it once (and the run was called back due to a holding call).

All they had to do was just smash it up the middle pointlessly for three times, burn about 2-2.5 minutes there, and they're hoisting a Lombardi trophy.

But that didn't happen.

BUT THEY HAD THE CHANCE TO! Something Washington hasn't had in a LONG time.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

Stafford man that guys a beast!!! Carson Palmer.

Yep, good quarterbacks will be put on bad teams. And they won't get to the Super Bowl, but then again, only two teams out of 32 get that shot every year.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

Cam for years they struggled and when they got into their window their idiot GM let a all people CB leave. And Cams body broke down by the time they finally learned how to win.

Super Bowl 50 was in Cam's prime.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

Look at Buffalo fighting these last few years just to build a winning culture. Imagine them establishing that before Allen and them having more pieces around him I feel like he’s further along. Drafting a QB early while it teaches them grit and perseverance they will learn that on a good team against the best teams!!! I’m sorry building a complete roster seems to have more sustained results then drafting a guy to the worse team.

Prior to Josh Allen's arrival, the Bills had just broken a 19 year dry spell of not making the playoffs in 2017.

They followed that up with .. a 6-10 record in Josh Allen's rookie year.

Keep in mind that Buffalo was only able to get Josh Allen because they first traded Cordy Glenn, 1.21, and 5.21 to Cincinnati for 1.12 and 6.13 before the 2017 season and then during the draft traded 1.12, 2.21, and 2.24 (*) for 1.07 and 7.37.

(*) 2.24 was acquired (alongside EJ Gaines) by sending Sammy Watkins and 6.21 to the LA Rams. Gaines left after the 2018 season, went to the Browns for a season, came back to the Bills in 2019 but ended up on IR (followed by an injury settlement release) in the preseason, re-signed with the Bills in April of 2020 and then announced he would sit out due to COVID in August.

So, a 1st, a 2nd, a 5th, a good LT, and a good WR for Josh Allen, a 6th (Ray-Ray McCloud, who they waived after one season), a 7th (Austin Proehl (son of Ricky Proehl), who hasn't taken a snap in the NFL), and one season from a corner.

And they're probably happy with that because they got their quarterback.

 

But all that said, Sean McDermott had been the head coach for one year prior to Allen's arrival. The GM (Brandon Beane) wasn't hired until May 9th, so he had little to no impact on the shaping of the roster (and consequently, the culture). But who was there at the end of 2017 season that was there at the end of the following year (names that are bolded were also present in 2019 (Allen's sophomore season)). Any code in square brackets is where they ended the season.

Quarterbacks: <none>
Runningbacks: Patrick DiMarco, Taiwan Jones [2017 IR, 2018 IR], LeSean McCoy, Marcus Murphy
Wide Receivers: Zay Jones, Deonte Thompson
Tight Ends: Charles Clay, Jason Croom [2017 PS, 2019 IR], Logan Thomas, Keith Towbridge [2017 IR, 2018 PS]
Offensive Linemen: Dion Dawkins, Vladimir Ducasse, Ryan Groy, Conor McDermott, John Miller, Jordan Mills
Defensive Linemen: Jerry Hughes, Shaq Lawson [2017 IR], Kyle Williams, Eddie Yarbrough
Linebackers: Lorenzo Alexander, Deon Lacey, Matt Milano [2018 IR]
Defensive Backs: Micah Hyde, Dean Marlowe [2017 PS], Lafayette Pitts, Jordan Poyer, Tre'Davious White
Specialists: Cory Carter [2017 PS, 2018 IR], Reid Ferguson, Steven Hauschka

So, 13 of 53 made it through from the "culturing" year to the year after Allen was drafted. And two of those were specialists. So, 22% of non-special teams player.

Color me impressed!

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

Drafting a QB early while it teaches them grit and perseverance they will learn that on a good team against the best teams!!!

Given that 14 of 16 games on the schedule are already determined ahead of time, I'm not sure how you would get the best teams in this way.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

I’m sorry building a complete roster seems to have more sustained results then drafting a guy to the worse team.

*insert "Why not both?" gif here*

You have a better chance to get better talent if you are higher up the draft. Again, it isn't just the first round, but the other rounds as well. Especially 2nd and 4th, when you can plan for your moves ahead of the draft start.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

If we win 4 or 5 games that’s exactly what we are. Why route to be worse? Because we can’t find a player that turns out better then a guy picked higher? It happens every year in every class.

If they end up at 4-5 wins, while not great, that would be relatively acceptable because they aren't good.

The problem is that they've convinced themselves that they can win the division. And they could! Except they would be the King of Turd Mountain.

Also, yes, there are players who are picked lower who do better than ones higher. However, if you pick lower, you don't have the chance at that player.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

Alex Smith took so long to learn how to win by the time he started winning his ability to really get better physically was done. Brady was on a good team!!! Big Ben good team good culture. Russell, Rodgers, Lock is on a team familiar with winning on defense and have put pieces around him. He’s growing.

I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to Alex Smith. He was an okay career for most of his career. Also, first overall draft pick.

Ben Roethlisberger was drafted 11th, and realistically only that far because he played at Miami of Ohio. However, I'll concede the culture for the Steelers.

Brady got insanely lucky as he would almost never had a chance to become TOM BRADY had Drew Bledsoe (who signed a 10y/$100M contract six weeks before the 2000 NFL Draft) not sheared a blood vessel around his heart after taking a hit from a NY Jets' defensive lineman in week 2. Also, keep in mind that the Patriots of 1999 and 2000 are not the same as the Patriots as we think of them now. More on them in a bit.

Rodgers: A) was drafted 25th after an inexplicable fall (there were debates as to whether he or Smith would go first overall), and B) had to sit three years because he was stuck behind a first ballot Hall of Fame QB. VERY special case there.

Unlike with Washington, Denver is surrounding Lock with talent. Early returns have been mixed as to whether it will pay off.

Arguably the only one who fits your criteria is Russell Wilson. Again, he wasn't considered highly because of his height.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

Do we ever doubt a QB NE selects or even player? No.

Oh absolutely I do.

New England is great at manipulating the draft, but are so-so at selecting in the draft.

On 11/2/2020 at 8:57 AM, ripsean21 said:

But we’re actually taking those type of steps drafting competing week after week with a lesser talent. So yes I believe a stacked roster with their guy they can outperform those guys on the teams that will more then likely select them. 

I think you're trying to say that they need an infusion of talent. I would agree wholeheartedly with that.

However, you leave out how to get to this stacked roster that has "their guy."