Crimmage Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 hour ago, m haynes said: I don't understand the Tray Lance love. Here are a few examples I have heard for why: Many people see Lance as the player most similar to Cam Cam can mentor Lance for a season and help him develop Build an offense you believe Lance could do well in but also have Cam perform this season Many people believe Lance is the only QB out of the top 4 they have a chance of trading up to get 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m haynes Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 52 minutes ago, Crimmage said: help him develop That's the part I don't get. IMO you can't teach QB. EX Take Tribisky and Haskins they have physical skills but you can't develop QB skills. Lance hasn't shown any QB skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 Lance is a guy you take and hope he develops like Josh Allen. I'm not crazy about him (and I looked at some of his film that showed me things that are definitely red flags), but if the alternative is a guy whose likely ceiling is to be the next Matt Schaub or Andy Dalton, or whomever, then I'd rather roll the dice and hope the guy learns "QB skills" after a year or two on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 If Lance comes into your pre-draft interview and you show him all the film where he displays bad mechanics, bad footwork, wrong reads, etc. and grill him on what he's doing to fix those problems, and he shows you that he's dedicated to getting better, then you take him. But if he comes in thinking he's god's gift and gives you JaMarcus Russell/Vince Young vibes, you tell him to f off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, m haynes said: That's the part I don't get. IMO you can't teach QB. EX Take Tribisky and Haskins they have physical skills but you can't develop QB skills. Lance hasn't shown any QB skills. To me, there are two things you can't teach a QB: 1. The natural gifts (Size/Athleticism/Arm strength) 2. Dedication/Work ethic Any QB who possesses these two traits is eminently draftable in today's NFL. The other stuff - what you call "QB skills" is what you get with good coaching. If you would rather have a guy with limited athleticism and arm strength, just because he's got traits that you don't need to coach into him, you're selling short the ability of this coaching staff to develop players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimmage Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 When it comes to Lance the thing I like about him is that he appears to have a chip on his shoulder, more so than most first rounders. Lawrence has known he is going to be the #1 pick forever.. Lance on the other hand couldn't get a QB position in division 1 and worked his butt off to win a title and be a QB anyway. Most players would have just changed positions and taken the free ride to a big school. He was determined enough to make it happen and prove people wrong. From what I hear at least he sounds like a kid who has an UDFA mentality but the 1st round talent, which makes me believe he actually has a chance of reaching his potential. When it comes to Jones I think he could be a successful QB in this league, but if I were to choose I would rather trade a 3rd for Minshew and use that 1st rounder on something else. I think BB could turn Minshew into at least as good of a pro as Jones, if not better. He's also got a chip on his shoulder and I just love guys who seem to have an "it" factor to them. Fields is the one that intrigues me though, he seems like another guy who has all the tools.. but I never researched him much because I figured he would be taken too early and Ohio State QBs always seem to be awful in the NFL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) Fields has Watson-esque measurables. But I don't think he's nearly as far along in his development as Watson was as a rookie. If I were to give rough comparisons to the top 6 QBs, it'd look like this: Lawrence ~ Peyton Manning Fields ~ Deshaun Watson Wilson ~ Derek Carr Lance ~ Josh Allen Jones ~ Kirk Cousins Trask ~ Matt Schaub Edited March 16, 2021 by Starless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m haynes Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Starless said: To me, there are two things you can't teach a QB: 1. The natural gifts (Size/Athleticism/Arm strength) 2. Dedication/Work ethic Any QB who possesses these two traits is eminently draftable in today's NFL. The other stuff - what you call "QB skills" is what you get with good coaching. If you would rather have a guy with limited athleticism and arm strength, just because he's got traits that you don't need to coach into him, you're selling short the ability of this coaching staff to develop players. So we trade for Tribisky he has the two traits needed. Quote The other stuff - what you call "QB skills" is what you get with good coaching. History shows different. There have been many QBs that have the traits you mentioned however they never made it. Quote arm strength, just because he's got traits that you don't need to coach into him, you're selling short the ability of this coaching staff to develop players. You forgot to say the most important skills. I sorry but this doesn't apply to QBs. You can coach up every position but you can't coach above the shoulders with just a QB with physical skills. if that was true there would be more successful QBs and not so many bust year in a year out. Quote have a guy with limited athleticism and arm strength, just because he's got traits that you don't need to coach into him Come on just say Jones here because you know as well as I do that's who your are referring to. I completely disagree with your view concerning Jones. You are implying that he has a weak arm and i don't agree at all. Matter of fact he has IMO the same arm talent as Peyton Manniing and Drew Brees . Jones can make every throw needed at the next level and his accuracy is off the charts. Can he run no, however he has great movement in the pocket. You seem to think good coaching can develop QB skills well if that the case a good coach could add 5 miles an hr on Macs throws, which we know can't be done just like you can't with QB the skills. You can improve them however teach no way. Last RG 3 is another that had everything you suggested but guess what, no coaching was going to change his QB skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m haynes Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, m haynes said: So we trade for Tribisky he has the two traits needed. History shows different. There have been many QBs that have the traits you mentioned however they never made it. You forgot to say the most important skills. I sorry but this doesn't apply to QBs. You can coach up every position but you can't coach above the shoulders with just a QB with physical skills. if that was true there would be more successful QBs and not so many bust year in a year out. Come on just say Jones here because you know as well as I do that's who your are referring to. I completely disagree with your view concerning Jones. You are implying that he has a weak arm and i don't agree at all. Matter of fact he has IMO the same arm talent as Peyton Manniing and Drew Brees . Jones can make every throw needed at the next level and his accuracy is off the charts. Can he run no, however he has great movement in the pocket. You seem to think good coaching can develop QB skills well if that the case a good coach could add 5 miles an hr on Macs throws, which we know can't be done just like you can't with QB the skills. You can improve them however teach no way. Last RG 3 is another that had everything you suggested but guess what, no coaching was going to change his QB skills. Forgot to add. RG offensive sceme in college work one side of the field and had a primary target. Guess what the same offense was run by Lances team! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, m haynes said: So we trade for Tribisky he has the two traits needed. He's a free agent, so... 3 minutes ago, m haynes said: History shows different. There have been many QBs that have the traits you mentioned however they never made it. Of course. I never implied guys with those traits are locks to succeed. I just said that if I had to choose between a guy with great "QB skills" but marginal physical traits and a guy with elite physical traits and a strong commitment to improving, but needed to have QB skills taught to him, I'd choose the latter 100% of the time. Ideally you can get a guy with both. 5 minutes ago, m haynes said: Come on just say Jones here because you know as well as I do that's who your are referring to. I completely disagree with your view concerning Jones. You are implying that he has a weak arm and i don't agree at all. Matter of fact he has IMO the same arm talent as Peyton Manniing and Drew Brees . Jones can make every throw needed at the next level and his accuracy is off the charts. Can he run no, however he has great movement in the pocket. When did I say, or even imply, that I was opposed to drafting Jones? If you can show me that he has great arm talent, then sure, bring him on. But the developing narrative with him seems to be that he's somehow the second coming of Tom Brady because he's a guy with no outstanding physical tools, but is a "great leader", which I really don't buy. If he's worth a first round pick, it's because he's physically and mentally equipped to succeed in the NFL, not because of some nonsense that a guy who looks like the first guy your mom dates after her divorce with his shirt off is gonna become Tom Brady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) With the moves they've made in the offseason, I'd be fine with any of the top 5 QBs. I would be opposed to trading up more than a couple of spots for Jones or Lance, but I'd be more than content with taking those two at 15. Edited March 17, 2021 by Starless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m haynes Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Well it looks like the Hawks are out of the QB sweepstakes per P Perry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) I never bought the idea that they were gonna move on from Ryan, anyway. Why would they want to? He had a fine year last year, with no help from the running game or defense, and Julio missing half the season. Edited March 17, 2021 by Starless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m haynes Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, Starless said: When did I say, or even imply, that I was opposed to drafting Jones? Sorry that's on me. 12 minutes ago, Starless said: developing narrative with him seems to be that he's somehow the second coming of Tom Brady because he's a guy with no outstanding physical tools, but is a "great leader", which I really don't buy. That's just ridicules and not fair to put that on any college player. I will say he shown some trait when you compare him to Michigan Brady. Who was one of my favorite QB in college. Just so you know I respect you opinion concerning QBs and all thing Pats and look forward to your opinions. 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vachon777 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Wonder if we could get Josh Rosen from the niners for a late round pick. Most NFL fans seem to have an odd hatred for the kid anyway, he'd be right at home here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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