The Pats QB situation

[Hunter2_1]

Something to consider whilst we discuss first round targets. BB is using Phillips and Dugger in traditional LB spots, on the outside, so they can address speed to the edge. I wonder if this shifts his thinking about needing a LB with speed in the draft? It could do, because Dugger and Phillips (and Hall) played Lights Out against Baltimore.

 

I wonder if that removes Parsons and Moses from the board (not that we have a chance at Parsons, but he'll be on the board nonetheless)

Edited November 19, 2020 by Hunter2_1

[m haynes]

9 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Something to consider whilst we discuss first round targets. BB is using Phillips and Dugger in traditional LB spots, on the outside, so they can address speed to the edge. I wonder if this shifts his thinking about needing a LB with speed in the draft? It could do, because Dugger and Phillips (and Hall) played Lights Out against Baltimore.

 

I wonder if that removes Parsons and Moses from the board (not that we have a chance at Parsons, but he'll be on the board nonetheless)

I hear what your saying and I agree however you still need that guy in the middle. I don't see Bentley as the guy.  Moses has great speed as a LB and can go side line to side line.

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needing a LB with speed in the draft?

Your post screams. Nick Bolton.👍 He one of my favorite players in the draft, however it might be to early where the Pats are projected.

Nick Bolton 2019 Highlights | Missouri LB - YouTube

What stands out to me is the 1st play on the video and the play at to 1:20 mark.  He's a hitter with closing  speed.

[Crimmage]

Bolton is probably a late first rounder .. something like 25-30 I would guess ( like Patrick Queen last season). He's a pretty good name to bring up if Moses is gone by the time the Patriots pick. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if they trade back from ~19 to 28 or 35ish and grab someone like him. 

[Hunter2_1]

6 hours ago, m haynes said:

I hear what your saying and I agree however you still need that guy in the middle. I don't see Bentley as the guy.  Moses has great speed as a LB and can go side line to side line.

Your post screams. Nick Bolton.👍 He one of my favorite players in the draft, however it might be to early where the Pats are projected.

Nick Bolton 2019 Highlights | Missouri LB - YouTube

What stands out to me is the 1st play on the video and the play at to 1:20 mark.  He's a hitter with closing  speed.

I think we MIGHT be able to get him early 2nd. If the chips fall, ya know

[Crimmage]

Has anyone here seen a lot of Trey Lance? It's unfortunate that he didn't get to play this season but his stat line is obviously off the charts from last year ( 0 INT , 66% completion percentage, over 800 yards rushing). 

 

It's obvious that BB and Josh really like Cam .. and he could easily be our Bridge QB for at minimum this year and next.. could part of that be because they are interested in Lance and feel Cam would be a great mentor for him given their similar play styles? Josh obviously likes mobile QB's given that he drafted Tebow in hopes of having that kind of offense in Denver. Could it be that they intend to draft Lance and have Cam play all of next season with Lance learning behind him for a year before starting himself? 

I'd be curious to hear anyone's opinion on Lance given that he will more than likely be available when the Patriots pick ~10 

[m haynes]

I have watched all the videos I can on Lance and Zach Wilson.  The videos on Lance shows he's a product of his competition .  He big, fast, strong and has a arm. What he doesn't have is a game for the pro level.  His major flaw is he never and I mean never looks for a secondary receiver, if the play not there he takes off. The two QBs play lower competition but Wilson is a thousand time better than Lance. IMO it's night and day. I feel he's this years next star by the Kipers of the draft world. The same hype as Jordan Love.

They talk about Lance over Wilson and I crack up laughing, it a joke to compare the two.  I would take Trask or Jones over him.  Just watch the highlight videos most are Lance throwing bombs or running.  I guess if you give him Randy Moss and Chris Carter you might have the next Culpepper!!!

Last,  he looks great out of the pocket because the other teams are so below his level. If he played with the big boys he would have no chance making plays because  he wouldn't have all day to find a WR.

PS Trask and Jones I used to show they are better players. No way do I want both in the 1st round.

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by m haynes

[m haynes]

36 minutes ago, Crimmage said:

Has anyone here seen a lot of Trey Lance? It's unfortunate that he didn't get to play this season but his stat line is obviously off the charts from last year ( 0 INT , 66% completion percentage, over 800 yards rushing). 

 

It's obvious that BB and Josh really like Cam .. and he could easily be our Bridge QB for at minimum this year and next.. could part of that be because they are interested in Lance and feel Cam would be a great mentor for him given their similar play styles? Josh obviously likes mobile QB's given that he drafted Tebow in hopes of having that kind of offense in Denver. Could it be that they intend to draft Lance and have Cam play all of next season with Lance learning behind him for a year before starting himself? 

I'd be curious to hear anyone's opinion on Lance given that he will more than likely be available when the Patriots pick ~10 

Sorry I didn't attach my comments  read my post that follows

[Crimmage]

Aren't all of those pretty much the same knocks on Fields? Except he is playing against higher competition ( and has a better team around him)? 

I'm not surprised by that assessment, primarily because all of the draft profiles simply talk about his physical skillset and are banking on a team being able to take his "raw" talent to develop into a star QB. Even with those knocks.. I think it could be a matter of him getting drafted based on his interviews.. if a team believes they can "coach him up" to view the entire field and make good decisions .. they will likely draft for the talent and who knows.. he could turn into something similar to Josh Allen after a few years ( i'm not a huge Allen fan but he has been better than i expected). 

I'm pretty convinced that Lawrence / Fields go 1 &2 to Jets / Jags.. the most interesting teams are Washington / Atlanta / Carolina / Detroit / Minnesota / San Francisco. Any one of those teams could draft ahead of the Patriots and grab a QB. 

IMO it's 90% chance Washington gets a QB.. they have 4 winnable games down the stretch.. so they "could" end up with a better record than the Pats.. but it seems unlikely.. Many "experts" have them taking Lance but it could go either way. 

• Atlanta's problem isn't Matt Ryan, personally I'd load up on defense with that team but who knows, they could go QB even though he is a huge dead cap hit if they cut / trade him. 
• Carolina will have Bridgewater for 2 more years.. could see that as a good time to draft someone to learn under him ( giving Lance 2 years to learn could be good) 
• Lions get a new coach and you can never count out a coach wanting their own QB.. even though at only 32 Stafford should have a few good years left in him. 
• Vikings have 2 more years of Cousins.. probably unlikely.. but possible they grab someone like lance to develop 
• San Francisco is the team absolutely have to draft better than if they want a QB.. it makes too much sense to draft a guy and have him start halfway through the season when Jimmy gets hurt. They probably finish 6-10 .. so Pats need to finish at worse 6-10 to be better than them ( and likely worry about SF trading ahead of them if Wilson is there). 

 

Crazy to imagine how many teams need a QB and how there are really only 1-2 guys a year who look like a franchise QB. I feel for the teams who have been bottom 10 for years and struggling to get a QB.. it's stressful and we haven't had to worry about that in 20+ years haha If we can somehow draft ahead of SF and Washington I believe we've got a great shot at Wilson without needing to do a crazy trade which I dont think BB would ever do 

 

 

[m haynes]

29 minutes ago, Crimmage said:

Aren't all of those pretty much the same knocks on Fields? Except he is playing against higher competition ( and has a better team around him)? 

I'm not surprised by that assessment, primarily because all of the draft profiles simply talk about his physical skillset and are banking on a team being able to take his "raw" talent to develop into a star QB. Even with those knocks.. I think it could be a matter of him getting drafted based on his interviews.. if a team believes they can "coach him up" to view the entire field and make good decisions .. they will likely draft for the talent and who knows.. he could turn into something similar to Josh Allen after a few years ( i'm not a huge Allen fan but he has been better than i expected). 

I'm pretty convinced that Lawrence / Fields go 1 &2 to Jets / Jags.. the most interesting teams are Washington / Atlanta / Carolina / Detroit / Minnesota / San Francisco. Any one of those teams could draft ahead of the Patriots and grab a QB. 

IMO it's 90% chance Washington gets a QB.. they have 4 winnable games down the stretch.. so they "could" end up with a better record than the Pats.. but it seems unlikely.. Many "experts" have them taking Lance but it could go either way. 

• Atlanta's problem isn't Matt Ryan, personally I'd load up on defense with that team but who knows, they could go QB even though he is a huge dead cap hit if they cut / trade him. 
• Carolina will have Bridgewater for 2 more years.. could see that as a good time to draft someone to learn under him ( giving Lance 2 years to learn could be good) 
• Lions get a new coach and you can never count out a coach wanting their own QB.. even though at only 32 Stafford should have a few good years left in him. 
• Vikings have 2 more years of Cousins.. probably unlikely.. but possible they grab someone like lance to develop 
• San Francisco is the team absolutely have to draft better than if they want a QB.. it makes too much sense to draft a guy and have him start halfway through the season when Jimmy gets hurt. They probably finish 6-10 .. so Pats need to finish at worse 6-10 to be better than them ( and likely worry about SF trading ahead of them if Wilson is there). 

 

Crazy to imagine how many teams need a QB and how there are really only 1-2 guys a year who look like a franchise QB. I feel for the teams who have been bottom 10 for years and struggling to get a QB.. it's stressful and we haven't had to worry about that in 20+ years haha If we can somehow draft ahead of SF and Washington I believe we've got a great shot at Wilson without needing to do a crazy trade which I dont think BB would ever do 

 

 

Great post.

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team believes they can "coach him up"

That the kiss of death for coaches/GM careers. History tell you that.

 

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same knocks on Fields?

I not a fan as well

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 Ryan is a huge dead cap hit if they cut / trade him. 

I not sure but I think that changes June 1st.

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Wilson without needing to do a crazy trade which I dont think BB would ever do 

I agree however I would make the deal. I think its crazy if you don't. History shows teams go for years looking for a QB. There have only been 2 QB picked after the 20th pick in the 1st round in the last 20 years with any success . Yes there are QB picked after the 1st that are good such Prescott and Wilson however they are like Brady pipe dreams that came true. The Pats pick will be a big chip in moving up if they wait til next year and they are lower in the 1st the cost will be much steeper. Any team that pick before the Pats with a QB will love to move down the only player that they won't move will be if Penei Sewell still on the board. IMO there are only four player teams will consider as must have. Lawrence, Fields, Wilson and Sewell than it drops to the next level of players.

Edited November 24, 2020 by m haynes

[Hunter2_1]

General consensus on the talent is;

T-Law - bust proof, a generational talent, WILL go first

Fields - very accurate, effortless thrower (another baseball person), quick release, but does work with great receivers and OL and only one year starter

Lance - Great arm, great athleticism, scrambler and throw type that is hard to defend, but has easy half-field reads, and doesn't spot when he's about to get lit up and easy division

Wilson - subtle movements to dodge blitz, extend plays outside of pocket, big arm and deep ball with touch, but he can play 'hero ball' and ignores check downs, questions about the opposition he faces

Trask - good underneath thrower who can manipulate defenders with eyes and has quick release (sounds familiar), raw and you can see some of his throws die at the end, seems to have to put a lot in to throws for them to go downfield but apparently it's mechanical, holds on too long

 

In order of preference (not including Lawrence) I go Wilson, Fields, Trask, Lance

Edited November 25, 2020 by Hunter2_1

[ToonPatriot]

I'm a little stunned everyone is putting Trask above Jones to the point that Jones isn't even featuring on lists. They're similar, but to me Jones has a better arm and is more athletic (we're talking minimal gains on this one but every little helps surely).

Ignore the stat line for Trask (which i'll admit is impressive) and everyone comes up with the same deficiencies - paper plane throws, athletic limitations, but then suggest he'd be great for a team like us or New Orleans.

If our current predicament can tell us anything, it's that any team is a few FA losses and bad drafts away from dipping in form and the need to then have a QB who can pick the team up and carry it on his shoulders is immense. Why settle for a Cousins-type who needs everything around him to be singing all of the time for success?

Appreciate i'm mixing my argument here but ultimately i'd prefer a QB with more upside (Wilson ideally - i'd need to see A LOT more to be comfortable that's Lance), but if we aren't and we're going for that low 1/day 2 pocket passer guy - then give me Jones.

[m haynes]

4 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

General consensus on the talent is;

T-Law - bust proof, a generational talent, WILL go first

Fields - very accurate, effortless thrower (another baseball person), quick release, but does work with great receivers and OL and only one year starter

Lance - Great arm, great athleticism, scrambler and throw type that is hard to defend, but has easy half-field reads, and doesn't spot when he's about to get lit up and easy division

Wilson - subtle movements to dodge blitz, extend plays outside of pocket, big arm and deep ball with touch, but he can play 'hero ball' and ignores check downs, questions about the opposition he faces

Trask - good underneath thrower who can manipulate defenders with eyes and has quick release (sounds familiar), raw and you can see some of his throws die at the end, seems to have to put a lot in to throws for them to go downfield but apparently it's mechanical, holds on too long

 

In order of preference (not including Lawrence) I go Wilson, Fields, Trask, Lance

Two things to add

1. Fields ---- doesn't have a feel for the rush, which is hard to judge based on your comments on his OL. Usually never happens. Could he be another OSU QB that's the question. Who ever takes him better do there homework and make sure its not because of the hype. Can you say Baker Mayfield !

2. Lance ---- His opposition is as low as Wilson. He reminds me of  Daunte Culpepper (in the passing game) without Moss and Carter. Throw it deep and pray!

Forgot ---  I'm starting to like Jones from Alabama . He shows confidence and doesn't rattle. IMO he might not be a super star but he would be effective in the Pats system. No dumb screw ups, that all I ask from a QB! 2nd RD, maybe ?

Edited November 25, 2020 by m haynes

[Hunter2_1]

5 hours ago, ToonPatriot said:

I'm a little stunned everyone is putting Trask above Jones to the point that Jones isn't even featuring on lists. They're similar, but to me Jones has a better arm and is more athletic (we're talking minimal gains on this one but every little helps surely).

Ignore the stat line for Trask (which i'll admit is impressive) and everyone comes up with the same deficiencies - paper plane throws, athletic limitations, but then suggest he'd be great for a team like us or New Orleans.

If our current predicament can tell us anything, it's that any team is a few FA losses and bad drafts away from dipping in form and the need to then have a QB who can pick the team up and carry it on his shoulders is immense. Why settle for a Cousins-type who needs everything around him to be singing all of the time for success?

Appreciate i'm mixing my argument here but ultimately i'd prefer a QB with more upside (Wilson ideally - i'd need to see A LOT more to be comfortable that's Lance), but if we aren't and we're going for that low 1/day 2 pocket passer guy - then give me Jones.

I left him out because I don't know anything about him. Didn't want to just guess or go by hear-say. I will say though that once again the Bama WRs are the best in the game, and second is daylight

[ToonPatriot]

14 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I left him out because I don't know anything about him. Didn't want to just guess or go by hear-say. I will say though that once again the Bama WRs are the best in the game, and second is daylight

That's fair. FWIW I would be ecstatic with Waddle or Smith in the first round.

[Crimmage]

I wouldn't recommend getting excited about any WR in this upcoming draft. You'll likely be very disappointed. I expect the WR position to be addressed via free agency personally. This is a "hopefully" QB first then all defense kind of draft imo 

This team needs a WR1 to help everyone else out on offense .. with a more reliable threat it helps everyone else succeed. 

• Allen Robinson
• AJ Green
• TY Hilton
• Sammy Watkins
• Marvin Jones
• Kenny Stills
• Will Fuller
• JuJu Smith-Schuster
• Nelsn Agholor
• Chris Godwin
• Kenny Golladay

Now i'm not saying everyone above is a #1 but the receiving group is pretty darn good for a team with lots of cap space. Grab one of those guys and you instantly have a more reliable passing game ( wouldn't put it past BB to try and spite steal Godwin from TB either). 

Chris Godwin / Jacoby Myers / Damiere Byrd / N'Keel Harry / Devin Asiasi ( I still think this kids going to be pretty darn good by next year) .. while that isn't top in the league it's a hell of a lot better than what we have now and Godwin is young enough to help solve the WR troubles for the next 4-5 years

Edited November 25, 2020 by Crimmage