Week 10 Prospect Talk

[MWil23]

11 minutes ago, Blue said:

I will, I'm happy to criticize media figures who prop up trash like Blaine Gabbert and Daniel Jones as elite prospects.

Are you comparing Blaine and Daniel Jones to Fields?

IMO I think this is more of a 2004 QB Class type situation where you could be looking at a couple of guys who come in ready to roll...or how the 1983 draft should have gone down with Elway and Marino had there not been a bunch of rumors floated that made Dan drop.

[.Buzz]

In most classes Fields is far and away the QB1. Just so happens he is going to be in the same class as a guy that may be one of the better QB prospects (if not the best) in the past 15-20 years (and hyped as such for the past several years).

Acting like it's crazy that Fields has an argument here I think is lazy with his continued ascension this year.

[Blue]

30 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

...

Terrible comparison here.

 

26 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Are you comparing Blaine and Daniel Jones to Fields?

IMO I think this is more of a 2004 QB Class type situation where you could be looking at a couple of guys who come in ready to roll...or how the 1983 draft should have gone down with Elway and Marino had there not been a bunch of rumors floated that made Dan drop.

Blaine Gabbert was regularly touted by multiple big media names, infamously including Todd McShay, as a first overall pick level prospect ahead of Cam Newton. This continued well into the draft process until Carolina all but said they were taking Newton. I remember when Cardale Jones was touted as a potential top-10 selection (if not first overall) after, no ******* joke, four games. You don't like those comps, fine, Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers were once viewed as equivalent prospects. Plenty of people, myself included, thought RG3 was just as good or better than Andrew Luck, and we all know how that turned out.

I could go on and on and on about guys who were touted as "just as good" or "not just a consolation prize" next to clear-cut elite quarterback prospects. I'm not saying Fields is going to be a bust, although I don't have a high opinion of him as a prospect. But I think a lot of that talk is founded on seeing the exceptional so often it becomes boring, and people start exaggerating another player's talent level just to have something to talk about.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Blue

[MWil23]

16 minutes ago, Blue said:

 

Blaine Gabbert was regularly touted by multiple big media names, infamously including Todd McShay, as a first overall pick level prospect ahead of Cam Newton. This continued well into the draft process until Carolina all but said they were taking Newton. I remember when Cardale Jones was touted as a potential top-10 selection (if not first overall) after, no ******* joke, four games. You don't like those comps, fine, Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers were once viewed as equivalent prospects. Plenty of people, myself included, thought RG3 was just as good or better than Andrew Luck, and we all know how that turned out.

I could go on and on and on about guys who were touted as "just as good" or "not just a consolation prize" next to clear-cut elite quarterback prospects. I'm not saying Fields is going to be a bust, although I don't have a high opinion of him as a prospect. But I think a lot of that talk is founded on seeing the exceptional so often it becomes boring, and people start exaggerating another player's talent level just to have something to talk about.

That's fine; I get all of that, but I was more or less just asking for clarification. IMO I can understand the Luck/RGIII comparison here, but I think there were just as many people that were super critical of Blaine Gabbert (I hated him as a prospect) as there were the Todd McShay's of this world.

As for Cardale Jones, I think a lot of people said that after those 4 games, he should go pro since he'd at worst have been a 2nd Round pick...and it was actually three games (Wisconsin, Alabama, Oregon)

...unless you count the 2nd Half of the UM game as the fourth. (For the record, I'm trying to help your point, not be a jerk here). He wasn't getting picked above Jameis or Mariota, but given Garrett Grayson was the next QB taken in the third round that year, he may have had someone take a huge gamble on his upside with his frame, cannon arm, and production against Alabama/Oregon. Stranger things have happened, that's for certain.

My point was more or less that Fields is an ELITE prospect. I don't know anyone, outside of Todd McShay (I'll bite my tongue on him in general here), that said Gabbert was an elite prospect, and considering he fell to 10th overall, and was the third quarterback taken no less, most NFL teams agree. The dude threw for 16 TD and 9 INT as a JR and had major accuracy issues in arguably the most QB friendly college system around in those days at Missouri (ask Chase Daniels).

[Blue]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

That's fine; I get all of that, but I was more or less just asking for clarification. IMO I can understand the Luck/RGIII comparison here, but I think there were just as many people that were super critical of Blaine Gabbert (I hated him as a prospect) as there were the Todd McShay's of this world.

As for Cardale Jones, I think a lot of people said that after those 4 games, he should go pro since he'd at worst have been a 2nd Round pick...and it was actually three games (Wisconsin, Alabama, Oregon)

...unless you count the 2nd Half of the UM game as the fourth. (For the record, I'm trying to help your point, not be a jerk here). He wasn't getting picked above Jameis or Mariota, but given Garrett Grayson was the next QB taken in the third round that year, he may have had someone take a huge gamble on his upside with his frame, cannon arm, and production against Alabama/Oregon. Stranger things have happened, that's for certain.

My point was more or less that Fields is an ELITE prospect. I don't know anyone, outside of Todd McShay (I'll bite my tongue on him in general here), that said Gabbert was an elite prospect, and considering he fell to 10th overall, and was the third quarterback taken no less, most NFL teams agree. The dude threw for 16 TD and 9 INT as a JR and had major accuracy issues in arguably the most QB friendly college system around in those days at Missouri (ask Chase Daniels).

I was counting games played, not started, for Cardale, yes.

Rotoworld is failing me, so you're just going to have to take my word that it was not Todd McShay alone who was propping up Gabbert as elite. That was very much a general media consensus at the time, even in the post-season draft evaluation period, and yes, a lot of amateur draftniks were laughing about how absurd it was at the time, too.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

I was counting games played, not started, for Cardale, yes.

*Mafia Voice/Tone*

Subtle deflection and admission of error noted

1 minute ago, Blue said:

Rotoworld is failing me, so you're just going to have to take my word that it was not Todd McShay alone who was propping up Gabbert as elite. That was very much a general media consensus at the time, even in the post-season draft evaluation period, and yes, a lot of amateur draftniks were laughing about how absurd it was at the time, too.

Oh, I remember it well. This is honestly the point where I stopped listening to a good amount of pundits and got very invested in the NFL Network analysis. The guy was turnover prone, erratic, and got markedly worse as a junior than he was as a sophomore.

TBH, my major hang-up with Fields is that I typically like seeing 3 years of college production, and should he declare, he will only really have 2 years, since his freshman year he was used a lot like Taysom Hill at UGA.

I like my QB's to either have 3 years as a starter or get their degrees with 2+ years of experience...I know that I'm an old soul like Bill Parcells, but that's just me.

See: Trubisky, Haskins, Winston, etc.

(Granted, you have occasional exceptions to this)

[MSURacerDT55]

1 hour ago, .Buzz said:

...

Terrible comparison here.

Apparently he has the ability to see into the future, which begs me to question why is he on this forum in the first place and not on his own island.....🤔

[rackcs]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

 

Blaine Gabbert was regularly touted by multiple big media names, infamously including Todd McShay, as a first overall pick level prospect ahead of Cam Newton. This continued well into the draft process until Carolina all but said they were taking Newton. I remember when Cardale Jones was touted as a potential top-10 selection (if not first overall) after, no ******* joke, four games. You don't like those comps, fine, Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers were once viewed as equivalent prospects. Plenty of people, myself included, thought RG3 was just as good or better than Andrew Luck, and we all know how that turned out.

I could go on and on and on about guys who were touted as "just as good" or "not just a consolation prize" next to clear-cut elite quarterback prospects. I'm not saying Fields is going to be a bust, although I don't have a high opinion of him as a prospect. But I think a lot of that talk is founded on seeing the exceptional so often it becomes boring, and people start exaggerating another player's talent level just to have something to talk about.

Current argument aside, I was a huge RG3 fan that year and even called him as one of my sleepers the summer before his final season when he blew up. He remains pretty much my biggest scouting win. I still wonder if his career would've turned out differently if he'd gone to a different team.

[Blue]

4 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Apparently he has the ability to see into the future, which begs me to question why is he on this forum in the first place and not on his own island.....🤔

You don't seem to understand that we're discussing these players as prospects. You're letting your knowledge of how those players turned out affect your memory of how they were regarded prior to the draft.

[.Buzz]

5 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Apparently he has the ability to see into the future, which begs me to question why is he on this forum in the first place and not on his own island.....🤔

Yeah, I mean Fields has been viewed in a high light for a while now. This isn't an instance in a random QB ascending late into the process because of the lack of quality QB prospects. Guys like Jones/Gabbert and plenty of other guys had major questions coming out and late helium. This is a legit elite QB prospect who is continuing to ascend. 

There's an argument to be had.

[Blue]

Y'all really don't remember the Blaine Gabbert or Daniel Jones discourse, do you. Because that's absolutely not what happened. If you do think that's what happened, I recommend expanding your sources of draft information. People were talking for years about how excited the NFL was about them, for reasons yet to be explained by science.

[.Buzz]

6 minutes ago, Blue said:

Y'all really don't remember the Blaine Gabbert or Daniel Jones discourse, do you. Because that's absolutely not what happened. If you do think that's what happened, I recommend expanding your sources of draft information. People were talking for years about how excited the NFL was about them, for reasons yet to be explained by science.

Please enlighten me then. What 2011 mocks prior to the fall of 2010 had Gabbert that high? Where were all these reports touting his play and not his stature/upside rather than his actual play? Same goes for Jones prior to the season he came out.

I'm not going to act like there was zero love for either. Guys that show some type of arm talent that "look" like a prototype always gets hype. 

Fields was neck and neck as a recruit with Lawrence. Fields prior to this season was viewed as a top 2 pick, and has just continued to lament it this season (and actually present an argument to be right there with TLaw).

[Blue]

Gotta love the fact that I can say I don't think Zach Wilson is going to challenge Justin Fields for QB2 in this draft class on one day and get vitriol for that, then turn around and get people arguing Justin Fields is just as good as QB1 Trevor Lawrence. What astounding luck that this draft class has three generational talents at quarterback, and we haven't even gotten to Trey Lance, whom some of you seem to think is better than Lawrence too!

[Blue]

Just now, .Buzz said:

Please enlighten me then. What 2011 mocks prior to the fall of 2010 had Gabbert that high? Where were all these reports touting his play and not his stature/upside rather than his actual play? Same goes for Jones prior to the season he came out.

Gabbert was a VERY highly-touted recruit for Missouri. There were reports for years about how Daniel Jones was a sleeper prospect, that he was getting coached up by the same guy who coached the Mannings, about how teams were impressed with his football IQ, etc., etc. Not my fault you didn't see or hear any of that, it's not like I had super-secret sources.

The media doesn't magically make these players rise up the rankings once the games have been played. If you think those guys took on helium right before the draft, it's only because media was just catching wind of what teams had been thinking for a while.

[.Buzz]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

Gabbert was a VERY highly-touted recruit for Missouri. There were reports for years about how Daniel Jones was a sleeper prospect, that he was getting coached up by the same guy who coached the Mannings, about how teams were impressed with his football IQ, etc., etc. Not my fault you didn't see or hear any of that, it's not like I had super-secret sources.

The media doesn't magically make these players rise up the rankings once the games have been played. If you think those guys took on helium right before the draft, it's only because media was just catching wind of what teams had been thinking for a while.

I did see all of that. I'm talking about prior to his last season jumping up boards. Where was Gabbert seen as a top 10 pick in the summer or 2010 (honestly even a 1st round pick)? Same for Daniel Jones?