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Week 9 GDT - Broncos @ Falcons


Broncofan

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44 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

You almost have to give Lock his rookie deal to prove he's the qb of the future don't you. I feel like this team is becoming the browns before mayfield or jets now. No qb will wanna come here.

No rookie gets 4 years of leash.    Lock has the rest of the season to show he's the guy - if he doesn't, at the VERY least, a vet QB gets brought in to compete for 2021 (Winston, Fitzmagic, etc).  At the very worst, the whole Rd1 debate starts over.   

Lock's only started 11 games - so he gets the rest of the season, without a doubt.   This year is a mirage for us being able to compete.  After that, all bets are off.  I say that with no firm commitment on him either way (being that it's only 11 games).

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1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

It was mentioned above, and I mentioned it earlier, but it's astounding how we're not scheming guys like Jeudy/Hamler to get open in space and let their natural talent/speed shine in this offense. Granted, I get that Sutton got hurt early in the season and that threw a wrench in things, but there needs to be some adaptation all around. I very much think Lock needs to improve- at this point he looks barely passable as a starter in the NFL. But, he's still young and the offense around him is too.

This is why I personally put more of the onus on Shurmur. He was brought in to help guide a young QB/team as Vic's handpicked guy, and so far, nothing. The run-run-pass sequence is destroying our momentum. It's a huge issue. I'm seeing next to no involvement with RBs in the passing game. Just weird playcalling all around. For example, have we thrown a screen this year? I can't remember one.

This is what drives me nuts bro. Reading @lomaxgrUK's post on Shurmur's offense a few pages back. How do you go into the offseason, knowing you are going to roll with Lock and knowing that EVERYONE in the organization is going to be on the hotseat until the QB situation is figured out...and bring in an OC that doesn't fit Lock's game? I thought Shurmur was a surefire "talent" upgrade on Scangs (who I thought was fine) and so that's why the move made sense. So far the results have been brutal. Unacceptable from the organization, IMO. Consistent with the incompetence we continue to see.

Lock seems like a Plummer type player. I get that the NFL is moving on...but building a west coast offense like Scangs where you build the run up and then fire shots down field off playaction seems like it would really fit Lock. But you guys know schemes etc more than me. 

Obviously a ton of issues all around with the team yesterday...but can't give Lock a pass either. A lot of bad process and bad results

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44 minutes ago, champ11 said:

This is what drives me nuts bro. Reading @lomaxgrUK's post on Shurmur's offense a few pages back. How do you go into the offseason, knowing you are going to roll with Lock and knowing that EVERYONE in the organization is going to be on the hotseat until the QB situation is figured out...and bring in an OC that doesn't fit Lock's game? I thought Shurmur was a surefire "talent" upgrade on Scangs (who I thought was fine) and so that's why the move made sense. So far the results have been brutal. Unacceptable from the organization, IMO. Consistent with the incompetence we continue to see.

Lock seems like a Plummer type player. I get that the NFL is moving on...but building a west coast offense like Scangs where you build the run up and then fire shots down field off playaction seems like it would really fit Lock. But you guys know schemes etc more than me. 

Obviously a ton of issues all around with the team yesterday...but can't give Lock a pass either. A lot of bad process and bad results

This is spot on. Shurmers offense is equally the problem and does not fit Lock well at all. Its almost a outdated form of offense from where the NFL is currently trending.

My real question is does Shurmer recognize this and adjust on the fly--or is he going to be hard headed and continue to run whats clearly not working because thats all he knows. I would hate to change coordinatiors again in the offseason but something has to give.

Edited by AkronsWitness
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One of the issues I have with Shurmur is that he runs the ball on 2nd and long too much. Other than that, I don't think he's enough of an issue to warrant being fired. One of the most annoying things I see from NFL fans in general, is primarily blaming the OC when offense is terrible. Case in point, the Titans last year. When Mariota was starting and the offense was floundering, fans wanted Arthur Smith fired from a cannon into the sun. They claimed his offense was archaic and didn't fit Mariota. After their game against us, they made a switch at QB, the offense became one of the best in the league, and they made the AFCCG. Now did Arthur Smith suddenly become a better play caller, or was it a case of actually having a QB that can execute the plays that are getting called? 

Our main issue has been the same issue for the past 5-6 years: crappy QB play. Players are getting open on film and Lock is simply not seeing the field very well. How many times are we going to blame the people calling plays, when they're being continuously replaced, yet the guy that's in charge of hiring coaches and picking players remains unscathed. Enough is enough.

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6 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

I get what you mean, but Rypien isn't the answer. He simply doesn't have the base level talent. If this was a team competing then this may be a valid argument. But this team isn't competing for a title. Lock does the have base level talent to be a starting NFL QB so that alone, for a team in our situation, is reason for him to keep playing.

It's refreshing to be on this forum. Twitter is a cesspit of people having such strong opinions either in defense of Lock, or overly criticising him. Sans a couple of people, everyone else seems to agree:

* Lock isn't playing well enough the first 3 quarters
* The scheme isn't designed to highlight his skillset
* His OL (as a unit) are letting him down
* Injuries have killed us

I haven't given up on Drew. It can take time for young players to figure out the NFL. It certainly did for Josh Allen. It's just so incredibly difficult when you look at young QBs like Mahomes, Jackson, Burrow, Herbert who seemed to figure 'it' out so much quicker.

History has shown that QBs improving from where Josh Allen was in his first two years are major outliers. Relying on Lock to make a 2020 Josh Allen-esque leap is foolhardy.

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7 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

One of the issues I have with Shurmur is that he runs the ball on 2nd and long too much. Other than that, I don't think he's enough of an issue to warrant being fired. One of the most annoying things I see from NFL fans in general, is primarily blaming the OC when offense is terrible. Case in point, the Titans last year. When Mariota was starting and the offense was floundering, fans wanted Arthur Smith fired from a cannon into the sun. They claimed his offense was archaic and didn't fit Mariota. After their game against us, they made a switch at QB, the offense became one of the best in the league, and they made the AFCCG. Now did Arthur Smith suddenly become a better play caller, or was it a case of actually having a QB that can execute the plays that are getting called? 

Our main issue has been the same issue for the past 5-6 years: crappy QB play. Players are getting open on film and Lock is simply not seeing the field very well. How many times are we going to blame the people calling plays, when they're being continuously replaced, yet the guy that's in charge of hiring coaches and picking players remains unscathed. Enough is enough.

See the open WR is one thing and throw another when you look the field you don't have his view and his time. When your pocket is  a mess (80% of time) you need to throw more quickly and EVEN if you see your open WR it is possible you can't make the throw because the defender have his arm on you.

Lock perform well enough with all injuries. I am more concern with Jeudy drops than lock vision. Jeudy was supposed the best WR in this draft with explosiveness and after 8 games no play more than 40 yds. He is behind lamb , Jefferson.....

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21 minutes ago, BroncoSojia said:

One of the issues I have with Shurmur is that he runs the ball on 2nd and long too much. Other than that, I don't think he's enough of an issue to warrant being fired. One of the most annoying things I see from NFL fans in general, is primarily blaming the OC when offense is terrible. Case in point, the Titans last year. When Mariota was starting and the offense was floundering, fans wanted Arthur Smith fired from a cannon into the sun. They claimed his offense was archaic and didn't fit Mariota. After their game against us, they made a switch at QB, the offense became one of the best in the league, and they made the AFCCG. Now did Arthur Smith suddenly become a better play caller, or was it a case of actually having a QB that can execute the plays that are getting called? 

Our main issue has been the same issue for the past 5-6 years: crappy QB play. Players are getting open on film and Lock is simply not seeing the field very well. How many times are we going to blame the people calling plays, when they're being continuously replaced, yet the guy that's in charge of hiring coaches and picking players remains unscathed. Enough is enough.

Titans had a run game apples to oranges man

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Side note - Fant is clearly nowhere close to even 80-90 percent.   Playing with a HAS sucks, even when you're back, it's nowhere back to being a full go.    Fant showed that on his 1st catch and run.    

Why this really sucks - if Albert O is out a while.   We're back to guys who don't separate or stretch the seam when Fant isn't healthy and O is out.  I'll gladly say I questioned the Albert O pick with Fant on draft day, but I get it now.    Watching Vannett & Butt run the seam vs. a healthy Fant / O is no contest.   Hope both are OK (Fant will be by next year, HAS isn't a long-term issue, but it will nag for rest of season in all likelihood, waiting with breath held on O's knee injury).

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On 11/8/2020 at 1:59 PM, Broncofan said:

Rypien has zero chance of being an above average QB.   His arm talent limits him much like it did for Simien.   Sucks, but that's the problem - great between-the-ears, physically too limited.     He'll be a nice asset as our backup..but that's pretty much it.   When your arm talent is the limit, that's about the best we can get.  Nothing wrong with that from a UDFA, fantastic result.  But he's not our answer.

Normally I would agree with you and maybe this is me giving up on Lock too quick, but what's the point in arm talent if you have such poor accuracy that you never complete them? I'm not saying Rypien can throw a 50 yard pass on the money, but I do remember about a 30 yard completion in the game he played. Again, his accuracy in a game which was his first ever, where he had almost no reps with our starters,  and where he also showed supreme blocking skills 😄 gave me much more hope than anything I've seen in Lock this year. I agree he is 100% a backup in this league but I'm not so sure Drew is even that.

Edit: I went back and looked at the Jets game, which is...against the Jets, but still Rypien had 2 touchdowns and 10 first down plays by my count. Surprise surprise, he also had a 48 yard pass to Jeudy...It seems his arm is fine.

For reference, by my count against the Falcons Drew had 11 first down plays and 3 touchdowns having played 10+ games and all the starter reps. Btw longest throw was to Jeudy in garbage time for 41 yards

Edited by Dbrog24
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1 hour ago, Dbrog24 said:

Normally I would agree with you and maybe this is me giving up on Lock too quick, but what's the point in arm talent if you have such poor accuracy that you never complete them? I'm not saying Rypien can throw a 50 yard pass on the money, but I do remember about a 30 yard completion in the game he played. Again, his accuracy in a game which was his first ever, where he had almost no reps with our starters,  and where he also showed supreme blocking skills 😄 gave me much more hope than anything I've seen in Lock this year. I agree he is 100% a backup in this league but I'm not so sure Drew is even that.

Edit: I went back and looked at the Jets game, which is...against the Jets, but still Rypien had 2 touchdowns and 10 first down plays by my count. Surprise surprise, he also had a 48 yard pass to Jeudy...It seems his arm is fine.

For reference, by my count against the Falcons Drew had 11 first down plays and 3 touchdowns having played 10+ games and all the starter reps. Btw longest throw was to Jeudy in garbage time for 41 yards

It's the Jets D.   Honestly this is a biased homer take.  Rypien is not a NFL caliber talent physically.  And it's not just the Jets game - we've seen it in preseason last year (and while preseason success should be taken with a grain of salt, when you see limitations / struggles appear against weaker competition, those do matter).   The best these guys end up are as backup.   Best-case.    It's Siemien all over again.   Now, there's nothing wrong with that when you are paying the rookie contract, it's a fantastic result.  But it's also a complete mirage in terms of franchise building.

Lock may bust out completely, not even be backup-caliber worthy - because his processing / decision-making won't make him a good backup if it's not better.   But if it is better, he has the physical tools to be a quality NFL starter, even top 6-10 range.    

It's frustrating as hell, but there is only 1 guy on the roster who has the tools you need to succeed as a NFL starting QB, and it's Drew Lock.    Rypien has the safer floor, but his ceiling prevents him from being a serious starter candidate.   Sadly that's the problem - you can't coach up tool limitations. 

As @jolly red giant  said - if you could put Rypien (or Siemian's) processing skills with Lock's physical tools - you'd have a helluva QB.    But you can't overcome physical limitations if you are looking for your future franchise QB.  

 

Edited by Broncofan
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6 hours ago, BroncoSojia said:

One of the issues I have with Shurmur is that he runs the ball on 2nd and long too much.

This is part of the classic thinking that has been demonstrated to be a complete fail on traditional coaching.    I have NO problem with running on 2nd and long - if it's because you're mixing it up, and being unpredictable.   In the 1H, I think we're literally running on 2nd and long well over 2/3 of the time.   Maybe it's just frustration making us remember those times (LOL).  

I'm not saying don't run the ball - but stop telegraphing our sequences.   Run from spread formation.   Pass from under center.      Run on 2nd and long a few times, but also pass more on 1st down so you get positive plays to start a drive, and then you can run on 2nd and 5 or less.      BE UNPREDICTABLE.   Instead, we are as vanilla as humanly possible.   And with the weapons we have in the pass O (now less with Albert O out), it's just inexcusable.

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