The Jakobi Meyers thread

[Crimmage]

Another old BB quote is .. the best ability is availability.. and Harry in 2 seasons has missed way too many games. His concussion issues aren't going to get better either, if he really had a lot of them in college he could decide to retire early because of it too ( given that he almost did in college because of it apparently). Harry's playing time the rest of the year is going to put to the test a lot of philosophies we believed to be core to a BB run team. 

[m haynes]

53 minutes ago, Crimmage said:

Another old BB quote is .. the best ability is availability.. and Harry in 2 seasons has missed way too many games. His concussion issues aren't going to get better either, if he really had a lot of them in college he could decide to retire early because of it too ( given that he almost did in college because of it apparently). Harry's playing time the rest of the year is going to put to the test a lot of philosophies we believed to be core to a BB run team. 

I always question how the Pats evaluate and how much work they do when they pick a player such as Harry, Jordan Richards and Tremon (SP?) Wilson. I 'm going on pure memory on a story I read when the Pats picked Lawrence Maroney.  BB took him after Josh McDaniel told him that his brother who coached him in Minnesota. said its would be a big mistake to pass on him. The part that got me was the scouts and there reports wanted another back. I think it was Joseph Addie or a guy name Williams.

Did BB do this with Harry and the other players I mentioned. I always here he has a bunch of friends (Saban etc) that he relies on when he's preparing for the draft.

 

This is probably confusing so I make it simple, how the heck does BB whiff on players so badly. I'm talking players the lack skills to succeed at the next level.  Harry Football IQ, quickness and the major one health, especially concussions.  Richards 40 time 10 seconds, Wilson average skills at best, 2nd RD ST.

Just think you have all year, scout reports and game tape and measurable. I think all of us would see these players lacks skills and never pick them. They decided the Harry was the best WR at 32. Richards 2nd RD.  Its baffling.

I give you tape on Harry and than tape on Metcalf who would you take after watching the players for a whole year.

Edited November 11, 2020 by m haynes

[Apparition]

48 minutes ago, m haynes said:

I disagree completely. I don't care where a player was drafted. The best player plays.  I always heard that BB felt the same way. Harry has shown nothing. IMO he's a bust and Meyers has been the better player. I pretty sure everyone that watched him in his 1st year knew we could have something. Harry nothing, just excuses, "he was injured" , well this year he wasn't and still stunk. I'm amused when people try to justify his lack of skills needed to be a WR in the NFL.  I don't see BB putting a player out there to see if he develops. That would be done on the practice field. We are all Pats fans so it hard to admit that a player taken in the 1st RD can't play.

2020 has been unlike any other year during the BB era besides 2000. The shortened offseason and high roster turnover meant that they were far less settled in the roster composition than they were entering almost any other season. The lack of preseason made things doubly difficult because they didn't get to evaluate the young players in live game action. That probably led them to prioritize giving reps to certain players early on in the season, based on who was practicing the best and who they believed had the best skill set. Over the course of the season those evaluations were bound to change. That's why you're now seeing so much less of Shilique Calhoun and so much more of Deatrich Wise than you did to start the year. 

Harry came into the season as a starting WR because the coaches had limited information with which to work about their WR group, and had to fall back on their expectations of how he would develop. He probably practiced well enough that they didn't sour on him in camp. And he was obviously taking 1st team reps throughout. 

[m haynes]

7 minutes ago, Starless said:

, based on who was practicing the best

I don't see how Harry can be any different in practice because he doesn't have the natural ability.   I also assume Meyers shows in practice or he wouldn't  be here. UDFA has a minute or he gone.

I do agree with the rest of your comment. Its been a strange year.

Edited November 11, 2020 by m haynes

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, m haynes said:

I always question how the Pats evaluate and how much work they do when they pick a player such as Harry, Jordan Richards and Tremon (SP?) Wilson. I 'm going on pure memory on a story I read when the Pats picked Lawrence Maroney.  BB took him after Josh McDaniel told him that his brother who coached him in Minnesota. said its would be a big mistake to pass on him. The part that got me was the scouts and there reports wanted another back. I think it was Joseph Addie or a guy name Williams.

Did BB do this with Harry and the other players I mentioned. I always here he has a bunch of friends (Saban etc) that he relies on when he's preparing for the draft.

 

This is probably confusing so I make it simple, how the heck does BB whiff on players so badly. I'm talking players the lack skills to succeed at the next level.  Harry Football IQ, quickness and the major one health, especially concussions.  Richards 40 time 10 seconds, Wilson average skills at best, 2nd RD ST.

Just think you have all year, scout reports and game tape and measurable. I think all of us would see these players lacks skills and never pick them. They decided the Harry was the best WR at 32. Richards 2nd RD.  Its baffling.

I give you tape on Harry and than tape on Metcalf who would you take after watching the players for a whole year.

I can't answer for every whiff. But the Pats clearly prioritize certain traits and abilities that differentiates them from other teams. They took Harry over Metcalf for likely the same reasons 30 other teams passed on Metcalf - the guy was very raw and had no experience running an NFL route tree. Moreover, he had a really bad 3-cone drill, and we all know how BB values guys who can turn on a dime. Frankly, I'm not sure how many offenses would allow Metcalf to succeed the way he has with the Seahawks. He still doesn't really run a full route tree or anything close to it. He catches a lot of rainbows from Wilson, and he's probably better at that than any receiver since Randy Moss. But the Pats' offense couldn't be more different from Seattle's. 

Now, as for guys like AJ Brown and Deebo Samuel? Your guess is as good as mine. Both of them would've been a great fit for the Pats and I'm sure the coaches wish they'd taken either of those guys over Harry. 

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, m haynes said:

I don't see how Harry can be any different in practice because he doesn't have the natural ability. 

When I look at Harry, I don't see an untalented guy. I see a guy who just hasn't put in the work to polish his craft. He doesn't win off the snap because he doesn't understand how leverage works. I don't have access to All-22 so I can't go any deeper than that, but I really see no reason why a guy with his measurables shouldn't be getting open more than he does. He's also running a very limited route tree, which suggests he just hasn't mastered the playbook yet. 

[m haynes]

2 hours ago, Starless said:

I can't answer for every whiff. But the Pats clearly prioritize certain traits and abilities that differentiates them from other teams. They took Harry over Metcalf for likely the same reasons 30 other teams passed on Metcalf - the guy was very raw and had no experience running an NFL route tree. Moreover, he had a really bad 3-cone drill, and we all know how BB values guys who can turn on a dime. Frankly, I'm not sure how many offenses would allow Metcalf to succeed the way he has with the Seahawks. He still doesn't really run a full route trthouhgt he was a bustee or anything close to it. He catches a lot of rainbows from Wilson, and he's probably better at that than any receiver since Randy Moss. But the Pats' offense couldn't be more different from Seattle's. 

Now, as for guys like AJ Brown and Deebo Samuel? Your guess is as good as mine. Both of them would've been a great fit for the Pats and I'm sure the coaches wish they'd taken either of those guys over Harry. 

You right with Metcalf, baffling that he dropped. I thought he was a bust because of all the negative you mentioned. However we also don't get to see game tape which had to show his football player talent. That big with 4.3 speed that can catch. Classic case of over annualized. Looking back in history the Bears had the same type of player Willie Gault he did one two thing scare the crap out of the defense and catch TD.   I wonder if the NFL will over look TE Kyle Pitts. IMO he's unstoppable. They can't cover him. I have seen draft where he in the 2nd RD or low 1st. He's more than a TE , he can force team to change there defense to try to stop him. He's just like Terek Hill. The kid is 6'6 and has what a 40 inch vertical!!!

[Hunter2_1]

12 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

I would consider this:

7 11%

8 11%

7 10%

0 0%

0 0%

41 79%

64 98%

80 99%

 

Those are his snap counts so far this year. We run almost entirely 2 WR sets this year. With Byrd and Harry healthy, they are the two on the field with Julian coming in during a sub or a 3 WR package:

Damiere Byrd	56 88%	62 86%	66 96%	73 97%		55 96%	48 92%	65 100%	80 99%									505
N'Keal Harry	51 80%	61 85%	46 67%	57 76%		51 89%	11 21%	0 0%	0 0%									277
Julian Edelman	37 58%	52 72%	56 81%	46 61%		43 75%	31 60%											265

 

Its no coincidence that his snap count ballooned to 79% when Jules was ruled out and then 98/99% with out Harry playing. This being said, if you want to take out this one big performance I think you also have to take into heavy consideration that prior to week 7 he had almost no opportunities. Here is his last 3 games in which he was ACTUALLY on the field:

WEEK	OPP		oSNAP	RSH	YD	TD	TARG	REC	YD	TD	FumL
7	vs SF		41	1	2	0	6	4.0	60	0	0
8	at BUF		64	0	0	0	10	6.0	58	0	0
9	at NYJ		80	0	0	0	14	12.0	169	0	0

 

I think we can confidently say that when given the chance, Jakobi has taken advantage. 

Will be interesting to see what his snap count looks like when both are back then. There is no reason Edelman should be starting over him, given the product we've seen from both. 

[Hunter2_1]

7 hours ago, Starless said:

What you say is such a perfect encapsulation of why Harry seems like such an odd pick for Belichick. His program has always been about picking guys who are firmly committed to football, but that doesn't appear to be the case with this guy. 

Apart from Dominique 'I prefer cartoons to football' Easley haha!

I'm willing to give Harry til the end of the season. There's got to be something there that hasn't come out yet....surely

[Hunter2_1]

3 hours ago, m haynes said:

I always question how the Pats evaluate and how much work they do when they pick a player such as Harry, Jordan Richards and Tremon (SP?) Wilson. I 'm going on pure memory on a story I read when the Pats picked Lawrence Maroney.  BB took him after Josh McDaniel told him that his brother who coached him in Minnesota. said its would be a big mistake to pass on him. The part that got me was the scouts and there reports wanted another back. I think it was Joseph Addie or a guy name Williams.

Did BB do this with Harry and the other players I mentioned. I always here he has a bunch of friends (Saban etc) that he relies on when he's preparing for the draft.

 

This is probably confusing so I make it simple, how the heck does BB whiff on players so badly. I'm talking players the lack skills to succeed at the next level.  Harry Football IQ, quickness and the major one health, especially concussions.  Richards 40 time 10 seconds, Wilson average skills at best, 2nd RD ST.

Just think you have all year, scout reports and game tape and measurable. I think all of us would see these players lacks skills and never pick them. They decided the Harry was the best WR at 32. Richards 2nd RD.  Its baffling.

I give you tape on Harry and than tape on Metcalf who would you take after watching the players for a whole year.

 

I'm confident in this - Harry was added for TB. Bill thought he was the type of receiver who could immediately help Tom. Bill made a few moves to eek out everything from the final TB years, it was the draft before where he went double offense in the first round for the first time (ever?), there was the bringing in of Brown, Gordon and Sanu as well. These things point to a departure from the usual BB way and to me it's clear he was trying to maximise everything he could with Brady's last year. 

Harry was a big bodied receiver with good hands who lined up everywhere and produced tough YAC. So Bill's thinking Tom could use that well. It turned out to be a horrible connection and Harry was injured. It also turns out Harry doesn't have a football brain, but I'm guessing he wasn't drafted to be the smartest, just to immediately contribute in his own way. He can't even do that at this level. 

So, basically, I think it was a deliberate departure from BB's usual draft prep/strategy for a unique reason

[scottishpatriot]

7 hours ago, Troy Brown said:

What an insane story

There was an article a year or two ago about that - https://www.espn.co.uk/nfl/story/_/id/28066447/patriots-rb-jonas-gray-brush-fantasy-vs-reality-five-years-ago 

It all went South due to a faulty cellphone charger. At least that's what he says. 

[jofos]

I remember a while back talking with Jim Nagy, then a Patriots scout, about the draft. That year the Patriots took Brandon Meriweather. One of our talks was maybe a month before the draft and he talked about how much personnel stuff they had to look at on players, how character was as important as ability and how work ethic was maybe the most important thing they looked for in players. We talked a lot about Patrick Willis, he was the guy the Patriots liked the most in 2007 but they didn't think they had any chance to get him.

Jim was at the time a WR scout so we did talk about what they looked for as far as routes. Two things that stuck with me was the ability to get to an exact spot (if you were expected to break at seven yards one inch and break in at a 54 degree angle and run for 4 yards before looking for the ball they were looking for the guy that did it exact every time. Never seven yards 3 inches, Never 52 degrees.) The other thing was change of direction. 

I'm not sure how much things have changed since then Jim went to KC with Scott Pioli a couple years later. 

[Hunter2_1]

15 hours ago, jofos said:

I remember a while back talking with Jim Nagy, then a Patriots scout, about the draft. That year the Patriots took Brandon Meriweather. One of our talks was maybe a month before the draft and he talked about how much personnel stuff they had to look at on players, how character was as important as ability and how work ethic was maybe the most important thing they looked for in players. We talked a lot about Patrick Willis, he was the guy the Patriots liked the most in 2007 but they didn't think they had any chance to get him.

Jim was at the time a WR scout so we did talk about what they looked for as far as routes. Two things that stuck with me was the ability to get to an exact spot (if you were expected to break at seven yards one inch and break in at a 54 degree angle and run for 4 yards before looking for the ball they were looking for the guy that did it exact every time. Never seven yards 3 inches, Never 52 degrees.) The other thing was change of direction. 

I'm not sure how much things have changed since then Jim went to KC with Scott Pioli a couple years later. 

Interesting.

That doesn't surprise me, with Edelman and Dola etc, the ability to be in the right spot. It appears Brady preferred this.

I'm assuming it has changed slightly, and the proof would be Harry. A knock on him would be that he doesn't break off at the right time? Certainly Brady chewed him out once over that.

[DoleINGout]

I'm totally on board with Jakobi Meyers being developed to be the next QB.

[Apparition]

FWIW, he's now PFF's #3 ranked WR for the season.