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Giants Draft Talk

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2 hours ago, GmenSeattle said:

To be fair 90% of teams have "Superbowl aspirations" going into the season.  IMO the Jets, Browns, 49ers, and Bears are probably the only teams who came into the regular season without much hope of a playoff spot.  Out of those 4 the Jets are surprising (so far).  Just to say we have Superbowl aspirations doesn't make a Superbowl run likely.  The only way we scored points last year was OBJ.  He's out.  The only way we remained competitive last year was with a dominant run defense.  This year our D lets EVERYONE through, on the ground or otherwise.  

Of the playoff teams from 2016 ranked by the number of players they drafted between 2009 and 2013 who were on their roster for at least one snap last season.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx171009/lessons-winless-2017-new-york-giants-collapse-next-how-got-here-why-trouble-nfl

TEAM PLAYERS
Green Bay Packers 13
Pittsburgh Steelers 12
New England Patriots 11
Dallas Cowboys 10
Detroit Lions 9
Seattle Seahawks 9
Atlanta Falcons 8
Miami Dolphins 7
Houston Texans 7
Kansas City Chiefs 7
Oakland Raiders 6
New York Giants 4

 

Last.  Heck we're not even averaging one player per DRAFT.  That's awful.  That's not how you maintain a successful football team.  PAYING free agents to fill out your entire roster is how you end up in last.  Hopefully we can get some studly left tackle in the top 5 of the draft.  That should help bring us into the next generation of Giants (QB or otherwise) as well as trying to get the most out of the last couple of years with Eli.  We've been not bad for a lot of years and in that time haven't amassed any sort of youth movement to carry us forward. 

That's on JR.  His refusal to trade in drafts has killed the future of the team and he needs to go, IMO.

Ohhhh, with the Giants' famous loyalty to their coaches and front office, I think you can count on a few decades more of Jerry Reese ignoring the O-line, blowing 3rd-round picks, etc!

http://nypost.com/2017/10/09/giants-owner-should-have-the-ax-ready-even-if-he-hates-it/

 

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Edited by bzane

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2 hours ago, GmenSeattle said:

To be fair 90% of teams have "Superbowl aspirations" going into the season.  IMO the Jets, Browns, 49ers, and Bears are probably the only teams who came into the regular season without much hope of a playoff spot.  Out of those 4 the Jets are surprising (so far).  Just to say we have Superbowl aspirations doesn't make a Superbowl run likely.  The only way we scored points last year was OBJ.  He's out.  The only way we remained competitive last year was with a dominant run defense.  This year our D lets EVERYONE through, on the ground or otherwise.  

Of the playoff teams from 2016 ranked by the number of players they drafted between 2009 and 2013 who were on their roster for at least one snap last season.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx171009/lessons-winless-2017-new-york-giants-collapse-next-how-got-here-why-trouble-nfl

TEAM PLAYERS
Green Bay Packers 13
Pittsburgh Steelers 12
New England Patriots 11
Dallas Cowboys 10
Detroit Lions 9
Seattle Seahawks 9
Atlanta Falcons 8
Miami Dolphins 7
Houston Texans 7
Kansas City Chiefs 7
Oakland Raiders 6
New York Giants 4

 

Last.  Heck we're not even averaging one player per DRAFT.  That's awful.  That's not how you maintain a successful football team.  PAYING free agents to fill out your entire roster is how you end up in last.  Hopefully we can get some studly left tackle in the top 5 of the draft.  That should help bring us into the next generation of Giants (QB or otherwise) as well as trying to get the most out of the last couple of years with Eli.  We've been not bad for a lot of years and in that time haven't amassed any sort of youth movement to carry us forward. 

That's on JR.  His refusal to trade in drafts has killed the future of the team and he needs to go, IMO.

Come on you know what I meant by SB aspirations. I'm talking about a realistic chance to win the SB. Rightly or wrongly people were picking us to go to the SB and just because of a baffling start we should rebuild? The pieces are here. It's well known of our struggles in drafting during the period you outlined but we have also since then have done pretty well. We had one big FA spree and that was last year otherwise we've been pretty inactive in FA. 95% of teams don't have a so called "youth movement" to bring them forward. 

yes the only way we scored points last year mainly through OBJ. And then after complaints about our receiving depth we get two more targets that people thought would take us over the top. You're forgetting that we went 8 straight games scoring less than 20 points. Now we have gone 3 straight scoring 20 points or more.

 

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4 hours ago, GmenSeattle said:

To be fair 90% of teams have "Superbowl aspirations" going into the season.  IMO the Jets, Browns, 49ers, and Bears are probably the only teams who came into the regular season without much hope of a playoff spot.  Out of those 4 the Jets are surprising (so far).  Just to say we have Superbowl aspirations doesn't make a Superbowl run likely.  The only way we scored points last year was OBJ.  He's out.  The only way we remained competitive last year was with a dominant run defense.  This year our D lets EVERYONE through, on the ground or otherwise.  

Of the playoff teams from 2016 ranked by the number of players they drafted between 2009 and 2013 who were on their roster for at least one snap last season.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx171009/lessons-winless-2017-new-york-giants-collapse-next-how-got-here-why-trouble-nfl

TEAM PLAYERS
Green Bay Packers 13
Pittsburgh Steelers 12
New England Patriots 11
Dallas Cowboys 10
Detroit Lions 9
Seattle Seahawks 9
Atlanta Falcons 8
Miami Dolphins 7
Houston Texans 7
Kansas City Chiefs 7
Oakland Raiders 6
New York Giants 4

 

Last.  Heck we're not even averaging one player per DRAFT.  That's awful.  That's not how you maintain a successful football team.  PAYING free agents to fill out your entire roster is how you end up in last.  Hopefully we can get some studly left tackle in the top 5 of the draft.  That should help bring us into the next generation of Giants (QB or otherwise) as well as trying to get the most out of the last couple of years with Eli.  We've been not bad for a lot of years and in that time haven't amassed any sort of youth movement to carry us forward. 

That's on JR.  His refusal to trade in drafts has killed the future of the team and he needs to go, IMO.

Great post. When you look back on the last few years and how we are where we are, JR has to go. And its gonna be hard to lure a GM here while shoving the coaching staff of a bottom 5 team on him. JR has been unfortunate in players he drafted getting hurt, but its built up enough to not be able to blame injuries on the job he has done. 

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2 hours ago, Acgott said:

@GmenSeattleNice of you to show up when the season has ended!

Eh, life has been busy.  Working on changing careers, had another kid, y'all are lucky I remember the site is here. :D

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2 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

Come on you know what I meant by SB aspirations. I'm talking about a realistic chance to win the SB. Rightly or wrongly people were picking us to go to the SB and just because of a baffling start we should rebuild? The pieces are here. It's well known of our struggles in drafting during the period you outlined but we have also since then have done pretty well. We had one big FA spree and that was last year otherwise we've been pretty inactive in FA. 95% of teams don't have a so called "youth movement" to bring them forward. 

yes the only way we scored points last year mainly through OBJ. And then after complaints about our receiving depth we get two more targets that people thought would take us over the top. You're forgetting that we went 8 straight games scoring less than 20 points. Now we have gone 3 straight scoring 20 points or more.

 

Should read the article.  It goes in to much greater detail than I'm going to (especially since someone else already did) about how 2016 was a very lucky season for us.  In short, we won way more close games than a team does on average (8-3), our defense stayed remarkably healthy (something you can't ensure), our red zone defense was phenomenal (Unsustainable), and our O-line was garbage (this year it's worse).  

Once you add an injury or two on EITHER side of the ball, when all we have is high priced free agent signings with zero young/draft talent behind them to fill in, where does that leave you?  With an 0-5 team that's going to need to rebuild because the building has no foundation.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, GmenSeattle said:

Should read the article.  It goes in to much greater detail than I'm going to (especially since someone else already did) about how 2016 was a very lucky season for us.  In short, we won way more close games than a team does on average (8-3), our defense stayed remarkably healthy (something you can't ensure), our red zone defense was phenomenal (Unsustainable), and our O-line was garbage (this year it's worse).  

Once you add an injury or two on EITHER side of the ball, when all we have is high priced free agent signings with zero young/draft talent behind them to fill in, where does that leave you?  With an 0-5 team that's going to need to rebuild because the building has no foundation.

I read the article. It has some good points. But it's also an article that wouldn't be present were it not for a couple of failings on our part. We're no worse or better a team if those close losses turn to wins and vice versa. Winning cures all. For instance you gave that list of drafted players started from classes 2009-2013. The packers are at the top yet we all point to how without Rodgers GB would be a bottom 10 team. We were lucky just like the year before we were unlucky.  Seattle i bet you there is an article in pipeline ready to be posted when they perform below expectations. You 

If you remove the starter from any team and replace them with their back up there is gonna be a huge drop off. This aint exclusive to us. Show me one team that has a factory of talent in background of their starters go down.there is a misconception that teams are getting 5 or 6 quality player per draft. 

Edited by Kip Smithers

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25 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

I read the article. It has some good points. But it's also an article that wouldn't be present were it not for a couple of failings on our part. We're no worse or better a team if those close losses turn to wins and vice versa. Winning cures all. For instance you gave that list of drafted players started from classes 2009-2013. The packers are at the top yet we all point to how without Rodgers GB would be a bottom 10 team. We were lucky just like the year before we were unlucky.  Seattle i bet you there is an article in pipeline ready to be posted when they perform below expectations. You 

If you remove the starter from any team and replace them with their back up there is gonna be a huge drop off. This aint exclusive to us. Show me one team that has a factory of talent in background of their starters go down.there is a misconception that teams are getting 5 or 6 quality player per draft. 

Brady went down with a knee injury a few years back and the Patriots won what, 10 games that year? 

Not saying that Eli is as good as Rodgers, but imagine what we could be doing with the team Rodgers has around him?  Seems reasonable to think that we'd be doing better than currently if we had a solid team around our star QB.  The conversation has been had many a time over the last what, 5 years, about how the Giants are wasting a stud QB.  Give Eli the coaching/teammates that other elite QBs have had over the last few years and the Giants would have been in the playoffs as often as the Pats/Pack/Steelers/etc.

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Josh Allen has such an enticing skill set.  Canon arm.  Big.  Athletic.  At first glance I’d take him over Rosen and darnold.

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51 minutes ago, GmenSeattle said:

Brady went down with a knee injury a few years back and the Patriots won what, 10 games that year? 

Not saying that Eli is as good as Rodgers, but imagine what we could be doing with the team Rodgers has around him?  Seems reasonable to think that we'd be doing better than currently if we had a solid team around our star QB.  The conversation has been had many a time over the last what, 5 years, about how the Giants are wasting a stud QB.  Give Eli the coaching/teammates that other elite QBs have had over the last few years and the Giants would have been in the playoffs as often as the Pats/Pack/Steelers/etc.

Brady went down and they won 10 games because they had a easy schedule and I guess coaching. But the team was still good around him. They were 16-0 the previous year.

The Packers team isn't really very good. They have an all time great QB, a very good o-line and good receivers. If you give Eli that o-line we'd be consistent playoff threats. Have you seen GBs secondary? Have you seen their LBs (who are nothing more than average)? They have an offense that can control a game. 

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Just now, GmenSeattle said:
5 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

But the team was still good around him.

Huh.  I can't edit a quote and then write something.  Good to know.  Anyway, saying the team was still good around him is my entire point.  We had OBJ and that's about all we have on offense.  The other WRs aren't awful but as we saw in week 1, without OBJ they're just not good enough on their own.

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3 hours ago, GmenSeattle said:

Huh.  I can't edit a quote and then write something.  Good to know.  Anyway, saying the team was still good around him is my entire point.  We had OBJ and that's about all we have on offense.  The other WRs aren't awful but as we saw in week 1, without OBJ they're just not good enough on their own.

I think they are good enough to where the offense can still function at a reasonable. take AJ Green off Bengals they struggle. They AB off Steelers they struggle. Heck take Julio off ATL and it's more challenging. They are good enough, I just think that the offense is limited by the line. So having a gamebreaker like Idell us that much more important.

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I would love to grab Saquon Barkley in the draft but if the right QB is available when we pick, I think we have to take him. He doesn't have to start right away but despite our current record, we are not the Jets, Browns, etc. Our roster is much better but what you can't afford to become is a team with no QB. 

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