BR Article - How Matt Patricia's Patriot Way Went the Wrong Way in Detroit

[Karnage84]

Patricia has made his mistakes along the way and so I won't say that this exonerates him.

However, after reading the article, any coach bringing in the NE model is always going to be facing an uphill battle (pun intended), especially when replacing a player-friendly coach. 

What is frustrating as a fan reading that article is that a lot of the issues seem to be coming down to players not buying in. Ricky Jean-Francois isn't a future HOFer but he describes having to practically beg guys to stay late and watch film; there's a big stink about not playing music, wearing jewelry and/or jersey swaps.  Anyone knows that if you are going to come in and take a more authoritative approach you start off hard and then relax on things as opposed to coming in relaxed and then try to clamp down. If the guys are working hard and buying in I'm sure that the music or the jersey swaps is something he could relax on. 

Year 1 of Patricia has laid the groundwork for a lot of the issues we're facing today. He was a rookie HC that was learning on the job and came in after a lengthy playoff run. I don't think he was fully prepared to jump into the season and was probably playing catch up. Factor in having to bring the facilities up to snuff (practice fields were a mess and he had them repaired), incorporating new recovery methods, etc. The media guys have all commented on the difference from year 1 vs now. A lot of the players have commented on how different Patricia is from year 1 to now. Anyone that hasn't been in a role before is going to have to grow and develop into the job, whether by a little or by a lot. 

There is no question that Patricia has had some coaching issues and made mistakes along the way. Quinn has made some questionable picks and fa moves. I still feel that a part of the issues the Lions have had is dealing with guys that just don't want to work hard and are willing to come to work and collect a paycheque. Maybe a part of that sentiment is the message/ feeling essentially coming down from ownership and their lack of urgency to win championships. 

 

[MortexLion]

53 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

There is no question that Patricia has had some coaching issues and made mistakes along the way. Quinn has made some questionable picks and fa moves. I still feel that a part of the issues the Lions have had is dealing with guys that just don't want to work hard and are willing to come to work and collect a paycheque. Maybe a part of that sentiment is the message/ feeling essentially coming down from ownership and their lack of urgency to win championships. 

 

^^ I believe this is why Patricia is even here Owner's are not liking what the have seen in the past with maybe a care free attitude so then the pressure was on Quin to fix this issue.. His best idea was to change attitude/Culture of the team, Fire the HC and make this team more demanding.. Patriot way.. add in that Patricia was a first time HC and watched under Bill which from my understanding was/is hard on players as well didn't sit well...So anyone that didn't went out the door! 

This still begs the question why isn't this fixing the problem and that's why Pat/Quin got a mandate to make the playoffs this year our both are most likely FIRED!

Edited November 16, 2020 by MortexLion

[LionArkie]

My question is this attitude necessary though. Talent wins super bowls. End of story. I don't think for one second Bill Belichick would have won with the 2008 Detroit Lions. In an environment and generation that needs to be catered to, personal respect goes a long ways. I am wondering if everyone would have the same attitude towards Barry Sanders for skipping training camp every year while he was a Lion? Did Barry get special treatment. He sure did. Why? Because he earned it. Does Bill Belichick get away with being a colossal ****? Yes. Why? Because he earned it. What has MP done? He's won super bowls with NE is the answer. Well, so have what 4 other defensive coordinators who could never do anything else. Was MP a good player? Not as good as the ones he is coaching so that earns him no special treatment either. Well he is good at detail, look at how he calls out players for not knowing a particular sign in the Ford Field building because they can't pay attention. Yet how many times this year have we played defense with 10 men on the field? Wasn't this one of the reasons Caldwell was fired? I get setting a work hard attitude, but there has to be some give and take. I seriously wonder how miserable Bill Belichick made it in NE before he started winning super bowls? And BB wears on players too, look at Gronk. He was tired of BB's ways. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like the fact he calls out players and they are all equal. There is a part of me that this resonates with, but BB also has success to fall back on. You know when you go to NE, you are selling your soul for a better chance than at most places to win a super bowl. Because it has worked there -- for Belechick.

I get the hard work, but the argument wasn't only about hard work in this story. It was about hard work and having fun. Both can exist together. The coach walking in late to meetings doesn't help the case he is creating an environment of detail, discipline and hard work.  It creates an environment of **** you, I'm good and you suck. Especially when the coach starts off late and the first words are shut up ****. Maybe this is why the defense is always late at covering their assignments? What rookie player would get away with this? Why would a rookie coach? Because he's in charge? No, I don't buy it.

I get the whole NE dynasty thing. Yes, it has been successful. BB has won 6 super bowls the last two decades. Quite an achievement, but 14 other teams have won as well during this time period so the "Hey I need to be the biggest **** in the room when I've accomplished nothing on my own" probably won't go a long ways with the players when they know there are other places they can go and be successful. In fact as we are talking about NE having the biggest balls in the league today, as a player I would try to go to several teams over NE -- today.  So considering this, where would Detroit fall on that list? Furthermore, if I was building a team for Detroit today and I could pick any coach over the last 20 years to build my team, it would not be Belichick.  I would probably go with Dungy. He built it up in TB and was let go too early and he built it up in Indy and won. And get this...his players loved him. His players would have died for him (maybe a little dramatic), I don't think that's the case with Belichick, nor is that what he's looking for. So which method is the right one?

At what point do you treat the players as people and not as overpaid objects? There are services out there that tell you how employers are to work for. Potential talent can look at it and say, "Nah, I'm good" and the employer loses out on talent due to how former employees rank them. Some of it is an absolute ***** fest, but the candidate gets to make that decision for himself. If he is good, he can do that. If he is not, he has to go to whoever will take him. I can guarantee these things get said around the NFL as well about teams and coaches. Google is not google because they have a bunch of morons working for them, but have great leadership alone. Google is Google because they have some of the best out there working for them and great bosses. They also treat their employees very well in most cases.  They can have the greatest organizational set up out there, but if their algorithms don't work correctly it's a 404 for them.  NE had arguably the greatest QB of all time. NE also needs talent to win those super bowls. After Brady left, they had to go after a talented QB to stand a chance.  People go to Google because it is google. People go to NE because it is NE.  No one goes to a startup to be treated like crap and believes they are going to be the next google because they are called names and meetings don't start on time. This doesn't mean they don't work hard, but it also means the employer can't treat them like crap and in a lot of cases, they have to offer fringe benefits to make it enjoyable. The Lions are that startup.

I'm sorry, but if my brand new boss came late to a meeting and said what MP said to his players to me I would have my resume out that evening and there are plenty of people who would pay me for my services. Not only that, but my employer would be losing out as it takes time to train people in our system. I am no professional athlete, but I am a productive, hardworking employee who knows how our system works.  I am not plug and play and I don't believe these players are either. It is not about working hard, I put the hours in, more than anyone else in my department and in some cases for less money than others who aren't working as hard or don't care. I'm the only one who stays late. I'm the only one who continues their education. So it's not about the hard work. It's the fact I'm a paid for professional, so I should work and act as one. In return, you should treat me like one. Respect is not a one way street, it's reciprocated and earned. When has MP earned it with the Lions? When in his rookie season did he reciprocate it?

Well, enough of me rambling as I have said too much. There was a lot said in this article.  It helps us see both sides a little more clearly. I think MP was incredibly misunderstood by the players in his rookie season, but that's on him and I don't feel bad for him either as he will have to work really hard to get himself out of the mess he made. In the end, I believe hard work, mutual respect and enjoyable environment will foster a culture of excelling. I think this has already been proven time and again in the professional world.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ex-patriots-player-explains-why-bill-belichick-can-be-so-frustrating-to-play-for/

Edited November 17, 2020 by LionArkie

[MortexLion]

I have a feeling that someone will take over this team next year and be successful and change the scheme add a couple players at some positions and draft for a LB DE or trade/Fa one..

[Sllim Pickens]

@LionArkie not going to quote that whole thing but also BB has some personality and isnt a complete prick, and wasn't from day one.  I just saw a video where Randy Moss invited him to the Halloween party he was throwing and BB showed up as Jack Sparrow and was tipsy and having fun with his players.  BB developed his style but also doesn't seem to have a record of making fools of his best players and was able to enjoy them.  He also has given Tom Brady and other stars rest days and allowed them to recover.  Yes he called out stars, but there were results.  And still the Patriot Way is leading to the downfall in NE because people don't want to put up with it when they aren't winning.  

I think the reason for the lack of buy-in here is because he came in treating this like it was an 0-16 type team.  He rejected anything that worked previously and said it was trash and had to break it down and build it up.  Which he didnt coming into a playoff team.  Not to mention when he got here he laid out a bunch of rules but then showed up late to meetings and seemed not to take it serious or work hard himself. I have no problem with having rules and working hard but there has to be a reason, there has to be results, and there is a respectful way of talking to employees that will get the most of them.  Seems that Patricia's ego made him think he could win with whoever he puts out there and couldn't care less who he trashed where as BB waited until he won to be the dictator calling out his star players in front of everyone. 

Yes a lot is on the players, but also a lot has to be put on the leader who doesn't read the room and doesn't know how to lead.  His methods have led us to two of the worst defensive years in our teams history.  The coaching mistakes and inability to hold leads are coaching failures and make it harder for people to buy in.  And whether you like it or not, talent wins games, so if all of the talent wants to avoid you, then you need to listen to the talent. 

[Karnage84]

28 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

@LionArkie not going to quote that whole thing but also BB has some personality and isnt a complete prick, and wasn't from day one.  I just saw a video where Randy Moss invited him to the Halloween party he was throwing and BB showed up as Jack Sparrow and was tipsy and having fun with his players.  BB developed his style but also doesn't seem to have a record of making fools of his best players and was able to enjoy them.  He also has given Tom Brady and other stars rest days and allowed them to recover.  Yes he called out stars, but there were results.  And still the Patriot Way is leading to the downfall in NE because people don't want to put up with it when they aren't winning.  

I think the reason for the lack of buy-in here is because he came in treating this like it was an 0-16 type team.  He rejected anything that worked previously and said it was trash and had to break it down and build it up.  Which he didnt coming into a playoff team.  Not to mention when he got here he laid out a bunch of rules but then showed up late to meetings and seemed not to take it serious or work hard himself. I have no problem with having rules and working hard but there has to be a reason, there has to be results, and there is a respectful way of talking to employees that will get the most of them.  Seems that Patricia's ego made him think he could win with whoever he puts out there and couldn't care less who he trashed where as BB waited until he won to be the dictator calling out his star players in front of everyone. 

Yes a lot is on the players, but also a lot has to be put on the leader who doesn't read the room and doesn't know how to lead.  His methods have led us to two of the worst defensive years in our teams history.  The coaching mistakes and inability to hold leads are coaching failures and make it harder for people to buy in.  And whether you like it or not, talent wins games, so if all of the talent wants to avoid you, then you need to listen to the talent. 

I don't think it was a lack of hard work or effort at all. I think he was playing catch up and coming from behind after basically going to the Super Bowl and then the next day joining as the Lions HC. 

Caldwell was named HC on January 14, 2014. Patricia was formally hired on February 5, 2018. That's a 3 week (23 day) difference time period with the draft and free agency coming up shortly afterwards. Maybe some of that could be pegged as a lack of preparation on Patricia's part coming into the role while he was still DC of the Pats. The other pov would be that he was the Pats DC and he was trying to win a championship before looking ahead. 

A lot of this feels like the 'chicken or the egg' type of reasoning: Patricia has won multiple championships as the DC with the Patriots. He's never been a HC so he can't lean on his experience and/or success as a HC to get guys to buy in. He also can't win games if guys aren't buying in and/or just putting in the extra effort on their own. 

[Sllim Pickens]

18 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I don't think it was a lack of hard work or effort at all. I think he was playing catch up and coming from behind after basically going to the Super Bowl and then the next day joining as the Lions HC. 

Caldwell was named HC on January 14, 2014. Patricia was formally hired on February 5, 2018. That's a 3 week (23 day) difference time period with the draft and free agency coming up shortly afterwards. Maybe some of that could be pegged as a lack of preparation on Patricia's part coming into the role while he was still DC of the Pats. The other pov would be that he was the Pats DC and he was trying to win a championship before looking ahead. 

A lot of this feels like the 'chicken or the egg' type of reasoning: Patricia has won multiple championships as the DC with the Patriots. He's never been a HC so he can't lean on his experience and/or success as a HC to get guys to buy in. He also can't win games if guys aren't buying in and/or just putting in the extra effort on their own. 

I don't think being hired later in the offseason process should impact his ability to show up to meetings on time when he did arrive in the spring.  He wasn't even around players for practices for months after that so he had plenty of time to organize and get his ducks in a row. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

I'll never defend players who don't want to stay late to watch film or practice hard. Any player with that mentality isn't a winner and shouldn't be on the team.

[Sllim Pickens]

6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I'll never defend players who don't want to stay late to watch film or practice hard. Any player with that mentality isn't a winner and shouldn't be on the team.

Thats fine, I will never defend a coach who is sloppy, shows up late, and doesn't follow his own rules.  I dont expect people to follow a leader who struggles to buy in to his own stuff and doesn't know how to lead.  

[Karnage84]

7 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I don't think being hired later in the offseason process should impact his ability to show up to meetings on time when he did arrive in the spring.  He wasn't even around players for practices for months after that so he had plenty of time to organize and get his ducks in a row. 

If you're playing catch up and having to develop things on the fly, overseeing the upgrades to the facilities (practice fields, recovery facilities), etc. then it could still be valuable time that was missed. 

I took a look at new head coaches who had been in the Super Bowl the prior season and their records. There isn't a lengthy history of these kinds of hires. The results are generally not great. 

2009 - NO/IND

2010 - GB/PIT > No hires

2011 - NYG/NE > No hires

2012 - BAL/SF > No hires

2013 - SEA/DEN > No hires

2014 - NE/SEA > No hires

2015 - DEN/CAR > Dan Quinn (Seattle) to Atlanta - 8-8

2016 - NE/ATL > No hires

2017 - PHI/NE > Kyle Shanahan (Atlanta) to San Francisco - 6-10

2018 - NE/LAR > Matt Patricia (New England) to Detroit - 6-10; Frank Reich (Philadelphia) to Indianapolis - 10-6

2019 - KC/SF > Zac Taylor (LA Rams) to Cincinatti - 2-14; Brian Flores (New England) to Miami - 5-11

2020 - TBD > No hires

 

There's 6 guys out of 22 teams and 44 coordinator positions out of the two best teams in the league year to year. Average record is 6-10. Which is exactly what Patricia finished with. I'd rather he be Frank Reich and I'd even have settled for Dan Quinn but he had the same record as Kyle Shanahan and better than Taylor and Flores. 

I'm not talking about the "9-7, 9-7" that's likely going to be touched on or Patricia's current record. I'm talking about a new HC coming off of a Super Bowl run and being thrust into the top job with a shortened off-season. Matt Patricia year 1 is the average. 

[Sllim Pickens]

6 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

If you're playing catch up and having to develop things on the fly, overseeing the upgrades to the facilities (practice fields, recovery facilities), etc. then it could still be valuable time that was missed. 

I took a look at new head coaches who had been in the Super Bowl the prior season and their records. There isn't a lengthy history of these kinds of hires. The results are generally not great. 

2009 - NO/IND

2010 - GB/PIT > No hires

2011 - NYG/NE > No hires

2012 - BAL/SF > No hires

2013 - SEA/DEN > No hires

2014 - NE/SEA > No hires

2015 - DEN/CAR > Dan Quinn (Seattle) to Atlanta - 8-8

2016 - NE/ATL > No hires

2017 - PHI/NE > Kyle Shanahan (Atlanta) to San Francisco - 6-10

2018 - NE/LAR > Matt Patricia (New England) to Detroit - 6-10; Frank Reich (Philadelphia) to Indianapolis - 10-6

2019 - KC/SF > Zac Taylor (LA Rams) to Cincinatti - 2-14; Brian Flores (New England) to Miami - 5-11

2020 - TBD > No hires

 

There's 6 guys out of 22 teams and 44 coordinator positions out of the two best teams in the league year to year. Average record is 6-10. Which is exactly what Patricia finished with. I'd rather he be Frank Reich and I'd even have settled for Dan Quinn but he had the same record as Kyle Shanahan and better than Taylor and Flores. 

I'm not talking about the "9-7, 9-7" that's likely going to be touched on or Patricia's current record. I'm talking about a new HC coming off of a Super Bowl run and being thrust into the top job with a shortened off-season. Matt Patricia year 1 is the average. 

This is ignoring a ton of context.  What was Detroits record the year before he got there vs the others?  Most new coaches go to bad teams and Dan Quinn went 8-8 and then to the Super Bowl the next year.  Shannahan went 6-10 and then to the Super Bowl in three years.  

Cinci had a trash roster and their best players were hurt last year.  Miami gutted their entire roster last year and now is sitting at 6-3 and looking like a legit team with a stud QB. Patricia took a 9 win playoff team and made us worse. 

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

This is ignoring a ton of context.  What was Detroits record the year before he got there vs the others?  Most new coaches go to bad teams and Dan Quinn went 8-8 and then to the Super Bowl the next year.  Shannahan went 6-10 and then to the Super Bowl in three years.  

Cinci had a trash roster and their best players were hurt last year.  Miami gutted their entire roster last year and now is sitting at 6-3 and looking like a legit team with a stud QB. Patricia took a 9 win playoff team and made us worse. 

It is what it is. If you want to complete the picture, I've already laid out the groundwork. We can try to explain away things and you're bringing in things that we're not even talking about.

Matt Patricia. Year 1. vs other Year 1 coaches coming off of a SB. The bulk of the criticisms on Patricia are coming from his first year (not being great with media, showing up late, making derogatory comments to star players, etc.). Looking at that in a bubble, he's in the average. 

[Sllim Pickens]

Just now, Karnage84 said:

It is what it is. If you want to complete the picture, I've already laid out the groundwork. We can try to explain away things and you're bringing in things that we're not even talking about.

Matt Patricia. Year 1. vs other Year 1 coaches coming off of a SB. The bulk of the criticisms on Patricia are coming from his first year (not being great with media, showing up late, making derogatory comments to star players, etc.). Looking at that in a bubble, he's in the average. 

But the point is that you can't look at record alone of other coordinators that left SB teams and try to compare that to Patricia.  They are all over the place from 2-14 to 10-6.  That record will depend on the type of roster they take over.  Patricia took over a good roster and a winning team and made them worse.  You are trying to pin that on 23 days in January that Patricia missed out on but those 23 days have nothing to do with showing up on time for meetings in April through July.  If he was behind from those 23 days, it is further evidence that he is unprepared to be a head coach and doesn't quite get what it takes.  That time right after the season is often vacation time for coaches anyways.  I just dont see how any of that plays into his inability to be a leader by showing up on time. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

6 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Patricia took over a good roster and a winning team and made them worse.  

Eh. Although true by definition, I think we all know that Caldwell's 9-7 teams weren't "winners". Barely finishing with a winning record and not making the playoffs is only a "winner" in places like Detroit.

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

But the point is that you can't look at record alone of other coordinators that left SB teams and try to compare that to Patricia.  They are all over the place from 2-14 to 10-6.  That record will depend on the type of roster they take over.  Patricia took over a good roster and a winning team and made them worse.  You are trying to pin that on 23 days in January that Patricia missed out on but those 23 days have nothing to do with showing up on time for meetings in April through July.  If he was behind from those 23 days, it is further evidence that he is unprepared to be a head coach and doesn't quite get what it takes.  That time right after the season is often vacation time for coaches anyways.  I just dont see how any of that plays into his inability to be a leader by showing up on time. 

Coming into a new job where you're the head guy, overhauling the organization in your image, upgrading facilities, evaluating the current roster, evaluating the free agent class, evaluating the draft and team needs, etc. Yeah, I do think that 3+ weeks would make a difference in that kind of transition. I don't think for a second that Patricia was taking that time to vacation and take a break. I don't think some of those issues are because of an egomaniac that is coming in and thinking he's so smart that he doesn't have to work hard. I think it was more a matter of a guy who was burning the candle on both ends and trying to complete an wholesale organizational change, top to bottom, in a single/shortened off-season. 

I'm not saying that it should have happened but it feels like this is what happened. He seemed a lot more relaxed and together going into year 2. We were being talked about as dark horse candidate for a few weeks thanks to the offense. Had Stafford been healthy I do believe we would have had a much better record than 3-13.