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Karnage84

BR Article - How Matt Patricia's Patriot Way Went the Wrong Way in Detroit

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2009 - NO/IND

2010 - GB/PIT > No hires

2011 - NYG/NE > No hires

2012 - BAL/SF > No hires

2013 - SEA/DEN > No hires

2014 - NE/SEA > No hires

2015 - DEN/CAR > Dan Quinn (Seattle) to Atlanta - 8-8 (Mike Smith 6-10)

2016 - NE/ATL > No hires

2017 - PHI/NE > Kyle Shanahan (Atlanta) to San Francisco - 6-10 (Chip Kelly 2-14)

2018 - NE/LAR > Matt Patricia (New England) to Detroit - 6-10 (Jim Caldwell 9-7); Frank Reich (Philadelphia) to Indianapolis - 10-6 (Chuck Pagano 4-12)

2019 - KC/SF > Zac Taylor (LA Rams) to Cincinnati - 2-14 (Marvin Lewis 6-10); Brian Flores (New England) to Miami - 5-11 (Adam Gase 7-9)

2020 - TBD > No hires

 

New Hires: 37 - 59 (+0.5/team)

Prev Regime: 34 - 62 (-0.5/team)

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6 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Coming into a new job where you're the head guy, overhauling the organization in your image, upgrading facilities, evaluating the current roster, evaluating the free agent class, evaluating the draft and team needs, etc. Yeah, I do think that 3+ weeks would make a difference in that kind of transition. I don't think for a second that Patricia was taking that time to vacation and take a break. I don't think some of those issues are because of an egomaniac that is coming in and thinking he's so smart that he doesn't have to work hard. I think it was more a matter of a guy who was burning the candle on both ends and trying to complete an wholesale organizational change, top to bottom, in a single/shortened off-season. 

I'm not saying that it should have happened but it feels like this is what happened. He seemed a lot more relaxed and together going into year 2. We were being talked about as dark horse candidate for a few weeks thanks to the offense. Had Stafford been healthy I do believe we would have had a much better record than 3-13. 

If you think that is all on Patricia, you are nuts.  He may have asked for things to be updated but the hill wasn't added until the middle of training camp.  All of that you suggested isn't done in the first three weeks after the season.  Evaluating the roster I am sure takes time, but he should have some idea of free agents and the draft class from NE unless you think he was completely kept out of all personnel discussions in NE.  He still had 2 months to prepare for free agency and 3 months to prepare for the draft.  The rest of the stuff can be handled by others once you voice what you are looking for.  His job isn't facilities maintenance, its being a head coach.  

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Just now, Sllim Pickens said:

If you think that is all on Patricia, you are nuts.  He may have asked for things to be updated but the hill wasn't added until the middle of training camp.  All of that you suggested isn't done in the first three weeks after the season.  Evaluating the roster I am sure takes time, but he should have some idea of free agents and the draft class from NE unless you think he was completely kept out of all personnel discussions in NE.  He still had 2 months to prepare for free agency and 3 months to prepare for the draft.  The rest of the stuff can be handled by others once you voice what you are looking for.  His job isn't facilities maintenance, its being a head coach.  

When he is ultimately held responsible for the results on the field, and these contribute to said results, he is going to have his fingers on things. So I do believe that, while he would have had support staff doing the legwork, he was still involved in those processes which took out time and effort. 

I don't think he was kept out of personnel decisions in NE but we're talking about two different teams with different needs. As the DC he likely spent more time on defensive prospects and then highlighted offensive prospects that they may face in the league. As the HC you have to split time more evenly on all three phases. I've never had to scout for an NFL team so I have no idea whether 2 or 3 months is enough time to watch film on your current roster (60+), draft eligible players (500 - 600+) and upcoming free agents. I get it, there's a GM and a whole scouting department and you need to put your faith in those guys. I also don't know how involved Patricia would want to be in that process. 

Assuming Patricia does a full self-scouting session (all 60ish rostered players) + top 100 free agents + top 100 draft prospects, we're looking at 260 players. From what I've seen available online and heard different media scouts (Daniel Jeremiah, Matt Miller, etc.) they watch the packages of 2-3 games which tends to be about 7 minutes/game. So you're looking at roughly 21 minutes/player. That's 5,460 hours of film study or 455 12 hour days. Just the self-scouting of the roster is over 3 months. Patricia seems to be a very detail oriented coach and I would not put it past him to be involved with the roster management aspect in the off-season. Rather than being lazy and egotistical I wonder if he doesn't delegate well and is too involved in the micro elements as opposed to overseeing the macro. 

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2 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

When he is ultimately held responsible for the results on the field, and these contribute to said results, he is going to have his fingers on things. So I do believe that, while he would have had support staff doing the legwork, he was still involved in those processes which took out time and effort. 

I don't think he was kept out of personnel decisions in NE but we're talking about two different teams with different needs. As the DC he likely spent more time on defensive prospects and then highlighted offensive prospects that they may face in the league. As the HC you have to split time more evenly on all three phases. I've never had to scout for an NFL team so I have no idea whether 2 or 3 months is enough time to watch film on your current roster (60+), draft eligible players (500 - 600+) and upcoming free agents. I get it, there's a GM and a whole scouting department and you need to put your faith in those guys. I also don't know how involved Patricia would want to be in that process. 

Assuming Patricia does a full self-scouting session (all 60ish rostered players) + top 100 free agents + top 100 draft prospects, we're looking at 260 players. From what I've seen available online and heard different media scouts (Daniel Jeremiah, Matt Miller, etc.) they watch the packages of 2-3 games which tends to be about 7 minutes/game. So you're looking at roughly 21 minutes/player. That's 5,460 hours of film study or 455 12 hour days. Just the self-scouting of the roster is over 3 months. Patricia seems to be a very detail oriented coach and I would not put it past him to be involved with the roster management aspect in the off-season. Rather than being lazy and egotistical I wonder if he doesn't delegate well and is too involved in the micro elements as opposed to overseeing the macro. 

Your math is wrong.  260 players at 21 minutes is 5,460 minutes of film study, or 91 hours.  That would be 7.58 12 hour days.  Thats just over a week to get his whole roster, the top 100 free agents and top 100 prospects.  And that is if there is no overlap with his already scouting of prospects and free agents at NE.  

Now realistically, I am guessing they spend more than 21 minutes per player, and there is time for lunch and discussion.  I am also guessing that he has scouts doing the grunt work and he may not spend as much time on all players.  So maybe it takes him 3 weeks to get through that.  That still leaves him 2 months before the first OTA to figure out facilities and work with coaches.  

Like I said previously, that first few weeks after the season is primarily spent on vacations and preparing for the draft/free agency which is primarily the GMs job.  He didnt miss much in those 23 days difference. Also if he didnt have to have some scouting reports of his own team and players when he interviewed for the coaching job, I would be even more irate at Quinn for hiring him. 

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24 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Your math is wrong.  260 players at 21 minutes is 5,460 minutes of film study, or 91 hours.  That would be 7.58 12 hour days.  Thats just over a week to get his whole roster, the top 100 free agents and top 100 prospects.  And that is if there is no overlap with his already scouting of prospects and free agents at NE.  

Now realistically, I am guessing they spend more than 21 minutes per player, and there is time for lunch and discussion.  I am also guessing that he has scouts doing the grunt work and he may not spend as much time on all players.  So maybe it takes him 3 weeks to get through that.  That still leaves him 2 months before the first OTA to figure out facilities and work with coaches.  

Like I said previously, that first few weeks after the season is primarily spent on vacations and preparing for the draft/free agency which is primarily the GMs job.  He didnt miss much in those 23 days difference. Also if he didnt have to have some scouting reports of his own team and players when he interviewed for the coaching job, I would be even more irate at Quinn for hiring him. 

I was on the right track initially, just missed a step. Being married with kids, the minutes feel like hours. 

Scouts doing the grunt work are going to compile the top 100 lists and team fits, etc. Those guys are going to sort out the eligible players, rank them, build scouting reports, etc. The 21 minutes/player would be the bare minimum. Ex. There's a Kyle Trask vs Georgia collection on Youtube that's 14.5 minutes long. A couple of those and you're nearly an hour for one guy. 

All in all, I still don't believe that Patricia is lazy and coming in like he's entitled because of his time in NE. I do feel like he puts in the work despite some other faults that have led to some of the current blunders. 

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11 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I was on the right track initially, just missed a step. Being married with kids, the minutes feel like hours. 

Scouts doing the grunt work are going to compile the top 100 lists and team fits, etc. Those guys are going to sort out the eligible players, rank them, build scouting reports, etc. The 21 minutes/player would be the bare minimum. Ex. There's a Kyle Trask vs Georgia collection on Youtube that's 14.5 minutes long. A couple of those and you're nearly an hour for one guy. 

All in all, I still don't believe that Patricia is lazy and coming in like he's entitled because of his time in NE. I do feel like he puts in the work despite some other faults that have led to some of the current blunders. 

Has Patricia been accused of being lazy on here? I haven't seen that argument posted, but maybe I missed it.

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3 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Has Patricia been accused of being lazy on here? I haven't seen that argument posted, but maybe I missed it.

I can't say yes definitively off hand because a flat out "Patricia is lazy" statement doesn't come to mind. It might exist but I can't remember and not going to put that on anyone. 

Coming in late to a meeting is either because he was working hard and lost track of time or because he's lazy and didn't feel the need to show up when he was supposed to IMO. There have been comments about him being the rocket scientist, smartest guy in the room, ego, etc. and that would also imply that he does not feel the need to put in the grind because he already has everything figured out. 

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19 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I can't say yes definitively off hand because a flat out "Patricia is lazy" statement doesn't come to mind. It might exist but I can't remember and not going to put that on anyone. 

Coming in late to a meeting is either because he was working hard and lost track of time or because he's lazy and didn't feel the need to show up when he was supposed to IMO. There have been comments about him being the rocket scientist, smartest guy in the room, ego, etc. and that would also imply that he does not feel the need to put in the grind because he already has everything figured out. 

Yeah, I've never really thought anyone was implying he was lazy. However if you have a meeting, you can't say sorry guys I was busy looking at building a hill. I always just read other posters as saying he was late for a meetings setting a bad precedent. He was egotistical in the way he talked to others (I'm not in this camp. I think he has been misunderstood here). If anything, I think it's been pretty well documented he puts a ton of hours into his profession and for this, kudos to him.
I just wanted to verify because I didn't remember this actually being said.

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1 minute ago, LionArkie said:

Yeah, I've never really thought anyone was implying he was lazy. However if you have a meeting, you can't say sorry guys I was busy looking at building a hill. I always just read other posters as saying he was late for a meetings setting a bad precedent. He was egotistical in the way he talked to others (I'm not in this camp. I think he has been misunderstood here). If anything, I think it's been pretty well documented he puts a ton of hours into his profession and for this, kudos to him.
I just wanted to verify because I didn't remember this actually being said.

Maybe I'm reading something into the situation that is incorrect. I think you do raise a valid question and unless someone does flatly come out with it, I'll withdraw that. Because I really and truly don't think he's a lazy guy at all and he puts in a ton of hours. 

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15 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Maybe I'm reading something into the situation that is incorrect. I think you do raise a valid question and unless someone does flatly come out with it, I'll withdraw that. Because I really and truly don't think he's a lazy guy at all and he puts in a ton of hours. 

I don't think he is lazy but I do think he is unorganized and appears unprepared and when you are strict on others, you have to be strict on yourself or it doesn't work.  Showing up late to meetings on a regular basis shows you don't respect the time of those in the meeting and they will quickly lose respect for you.  Especially when you yell at them and call them out publicly on top of that and make them stay later running themselves into the ground.  You must show discipline if you want others to be disciplined. 

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51 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I don't think he is lazy but I do think he is unorganized and appears unprepared and when you are strict on others, you have to be strict on yourself or it doesn't work.  Showing up late to meetings on a regular basis shows you don't respect the time of those in the meeting and they will quickly lose respect for you.  Especially when you yell at them and call them out publicly on top of that and make them stay later running themselves into the ground.  You must show discipline if you want others to be disciplined. 

I think that's a very fair statement and it could be a part of the issues plaguing the team and the buy in. The Dolphins didn't get the results initially in Flores' first year but they played hard. 

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6 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I don't think he is lazy but I do think he is unorganized and appears unprepared and when you are strict on others, you have to be strict on yourself or it doesn't work.  Showing up late to meetings on a regular basis shows you don't respect the time of those in the meeting and they will quickly lose respect for you.  Especially when you yell at them and call them out publicly on top of that and make them stay later running themselves into the ground.  You must show discipline if you want others to be disciplined. 

Although I agree, I don't recall hearing about missed meetings from Patricia after year 1. Perhaps his ego got the better of him, or perhaps he was initially in over his head, but he definitely didn't start his tenure in Detroit on the right foot. A lot of that has changed, or so it seems.

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4 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Although I agree, I don't recall hearing about missed meetings from Patricia after year 1. Perhaps his ego got the better of him, or perhaps he was initially in over his head, but he definitely didn't start his tenure in Detroit on the right foot. A lot of that has changed, or so it seems.

I agree that we haven't heard about much, but it still seems he is not connecting with the players.  Maybe thats because he burned the bridge and there are too many that hold grudges against him or because he is still doing things like that.  His comments after games regarding having a lot of work to do and talking about how great he was in calling the fourth quarter play in the Super Bowl show that his ego is still an issue instead of just taking the heat and saying he needs to do better.  At least it comes off that way to me and I am sure it would with those in the locker room as well.  I think he may have improved in his processes, but the results still aren't there and the focus isn't there.  Maybe its on the players to make sure there are 11 men on the field but its his job to get them prepared and we have been an unprepared team all year, which goes back to him being unprepared when he started here. 

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7 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I agree that we haven't heard about much, but it still seems he is not connecting with the players.  Maybe thats because he burned the bridge and there are too many that hold grudges against him or because he is still doing things like that.  His comments after games regarding having a lot of work to do and talking about how great he was in calling the fourth quarter play in the Super Bowl show that his ego is still an issue instead of just taking the heat and saying he needs to do better.  At least it comes off that way to me and I am sure it would with those in the locker room as well.  I think he may have improved in his processes, but the results still aren't there and the focus isn't there.  Maybe its on the players to make sure there are 11 men on the field but its his job to get them prepared and we have been an unprepared team all year, which goes back to him being unprepared when he started here. 

Isn't a third option possible? That, whether it be him maturing as a coach or the players (many of them new) buying into the system, we haven't heard about these situations because they're simply not happening anymore?

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2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Isn't a third option possible? That, whether it be him maturing as a coach or the players (many of them new) buying into the system, we haven't heard about these situations because they're simply not happening anymore?

It very well could be there are not direct situations with the players.  But that doesn't mean his comments haven't rubbed some the wrong way.  I think at minimum it shows he truly hasn't matured that much even if he has gotten better at showing up to meetings on time.  

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