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Karnage84

BR Article - How Matt Patricia's Patriot Way Went the Wrong Way in Detroit

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22 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

It very well could be there are not direct situations with the players.  But that doesn't mean his comments haven't rubbed some the wrong way.  I think at minimum it shows he truly hasn't matured that much even if he has gotten better at showing up to meetings on time.  

Just so we're on the same page: what comments over the last two years have "rubbed some the wrong way"? (I hope it's more than just two.)

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On 11/17/2020 at 6:16 AM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Eh. Although true by definition, I think we all know that Caldwell's 9-7 teams weren't "winners". Barely finishing with a winning record and not making the playoffs is only a "winner" in places like Detroit.

^Preach The Truth!

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15 hours ago, MortexLion said:

^Preach The Truth!

I don't think anyone is mistaken in thinking we were a great team but we were a 9-7 team that was one year removed from the playoffs.  There was talent, it wasn't a build from scratch deal like others have had to do.  Bottom line is it was a good team and Quinn said Patricia was here to get us over the hump, not take 10 steps backwards and start over.  

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18 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Just so we're on the same page: what comments over the last two years have "rubbed some the wrong way"? (I hope it's more than just two.)

I think the two comments this year show his lack of maturity and ability to take responsibility.  Those are the ones that I am talking about.  Yes just two.  But throw in the rest of what we know about him and it is a trend.  

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12 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I think the two comments this year show his lack of maturity and ability to take responsibility.  Those are the ones that I am talking about.  Yes just two.  But throw in the rest of what we know about him and it is a trend.  

 

Quote

 

After the loss, Patricia, who took over for former coach Jim Caldwell in 2018, remarked on the state of the franchise upon his arrival when asked by a reporter why people should believe in him as a coach. 

“I mean, that’s a hard question,” Patricia said. “Obviously, we just lost to the Saints. Let’s just give them credit for this game. They played extremely well and I know we’ve got a lot of work to do. Certainly I think when I came to Detroit, there was a lot of work to do, and that’s what we’re trying to do.”

 

He has commented further on this and has said that it is something they're always trying to do (work hard and improve). There are clear and obvious philosophical differences in Patricia vs Caldwell: authoritarian vs players coach; longer, hard practices vs shorter, less aggressive practices; fewer veteran rest days vs more veteran rest days; increased expectations for film study vs average/typical expectations for film study; increased conditioning vs average/typical conditioning levels; etc. Bob Quinn would never have been given the sign off to fire Caldwell and hire Patricia if ownership felt that JC was going to lead them to a championship. When Patricia comes in, things are vastly different of course he's going to view it as a lot of work in order to change the existing culture. Players don't have to love you in order to be successful. They have to respect you and expect that what your doing is going to lead towards success. Ultimately, I think this is overblown and isn't a big deal.

When he was asked about his coaching abilities and he referenced the Malcolm Butler play. 110% WTF was that about? It was a difficult question and a bit more of a personal challenge than genuine reporting. In my opinion he handled that in nearly the worst possible way barring challenging the guy to a fist fight. 

Back to the respect part - showing up late to meetings (which I still sort of understand on a practical basis but it's not going to win over the guys directly underneath you) and not really reading the room well is going to hurt you in that area. It's a bit of an uphill battle and it's tough to correct when the results aren't there either.

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21 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I don't think anyone is mistaken in thinking we were a great team but we were a 9-7 team that was *one year removed from the playoffs.

*One year removed from being a... 9-7 team. That team was one year removed from being... a 7-9 team. You called them a "winner". They didn't win anything.

21 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I think the two comments this year show his lack of maturity and ability to take responsibility.  Those are the ones that I am talking about.  Yes just two.  But throw in the rest of what we know about him and it is a trend.  

Just two, and one of them (the "needing to do lots of work") was both rational and justified, as he was completely revamping the defense when he arrived. (Quinn stated the same.) I don't think one "immature" comment over two years implies that there are the same issues that existed during his first year.

It's clear that your dislike of Patricia is clouding your judgment here.

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This is an interesting perspective and I'm curious to see how the FF-DET crew looks at it.

While listening to the Detroit Lions Podcast, the question was brought up about the following scenarios:

- Matt Patricia being fired; Bob Quinn being retained

- Matt Patricia being retained; Bob Quinn being fired

I believe it was Jeff Risdon who said that he felt it was highly unlikely that Quinn would be retained while it was more likely that Patricia was retained and Quinn was fired. He does believe there's a chance and prefers that both guys are fired but I found that to be an interesting and contrarian perspective to my own. 

They were also talking about some of the issues on defense - big, slow linebackers and the like being guys that fit Quinn's preferences as opposed to being Patricia's. I'm not sure how much of that would be true but I did find it interesting and a different perspective than I think many of us here share. 

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3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

*One year removed from being a... 9-7 team. That team was one year removed from being... a 7-9 team. You called them a "winner". They didn't win anything.

Just two, and one of them (the "needing to do lots of work") was both rational and justified, as he was completely revamping the defense when he arrived. (Quinn stated the same.) I don't think one "immature" comment over two years implies that there are the same issues that existed during his first year.

It's clear that your dislike of Patricia is clouding your judgment here.

Again, context where you want it.  His quote about a lot of work to do was justified in rationale or in reason.  He was asked about the last game and he brought up excuses from three years ago.  And he backtracked afterwards when he realized he alienated half the team.  It was a BS response, an immature answer, and further proof he likes to deflect blame.  That along with the rest of his history (you know context) means that I am still not convince he has grown and matured as a person and/or coach. 

Its clear your joy of aimlessly arguing and picking and selectively choosing what context you want to use is clouding your judgement here.  

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

This is an interesting perspective and I'm curious to see how the FF-DET crew looks at it.

While listening to the Detroit Lions Podcast, the question was brought up about the following scenarios:

- Matt Patricia being fired; Bob Quinn being retained

- Matt Patricia being retained; Bob Quinn being fired

I believe it was Jeff Risdon who said that he felt it was highly unlikely that Quinn would be retained while it was more likely that Patricia was retained and Quinn was fired. He does believe there's a chance and prefers that both guys are fired but I found that to be an interesting and contrarian perspective to my own. 

They were also talking about some of the issues on defense - big, slow linebackers and the like being guys that fit Quinn's preferences as opposed to being Patricia's. I'm not sure how much of that would be true but I did find it interesting and a different perspective than I think many of us here share. 

I think either of those options will be a mistake.  If you keep one, keep them both as they have worked together to build this and should have the option to finish it together.  If you consider them failures, then they should go together given the amount of time for both and the continued failure.  Keeping either of them shows that the leadership above them is not committed to winning and has no real clue what they are doing on the football side of things.  

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24 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I think either of those options will be a mistake.  If you keep one, keep them both as they have worked together to build this and should have the option to finish it together.  If you consider them failures, then they should go together given the amount of time for both and the continued failure.  Keeping either of them shows that the leadership above them is not committed to winning and has no real clue what they are doing on the football side of things.  

You don't have a choice... you have to pick one. Which is the lesser of two evils/who do you feel is more complicit in the team's failures? Quinn or Patricia?

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20 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

You don't have a choice... you have to pick one. Which is the lesser of two evils/who do you feel is more complicit in the team's failures? Quinn or Patricia?

Patricia is more at fault IMO.  Good coaches maximize what they get talent wise and I dont see that happening.  He is a defensive guru with back to back years of historically bad defenses.  That being said, it would be a failure to keep either of them. 

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8 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

You don't have a choice... you have to pick one. Which is the lesser of two evils/who do you feel is more complicit in the team's failures? Quinn or Patricia?

I've been back and forth on this.  Who is the cause of this mess? I think it is a combo.  I think MP is not getting the players he needs to make this work. I think MP is a 1 trick pony and needs specific players to make things work.  I think Quinn is stuck as many players do not want to play here outside of former NE players familiar with Patricia. This makes FA hard. In the end because I think MP has somewhat tied BQ's hands, I would give the nod to keeping Quinn and firing Patricia.  With that being said it wouldn't take much to convince me I'm wrong.

Edited by LionArkie
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Quinn has absolutely had some draft hits, but his reaches and misses are brutal. Jarrad Davis (1st rd) should have a more significant role, Teez Tabor (2nd rd) was an embarrassing miss, T.J. Hockenson (1st rd) will likely never repay that draft value and Jahlani Tavai (2nd rd) isn't performing anywhere close to that draft position. (Will Harris, a 3rd rd pick that can't - or shouldn't - see the field consistently, should be on that list as well.)

Interestingly, if you re-arrange his draft classes, you can make it make sense: a 2017 draft of Golladay in the 1st rd, Jarrad Davis in the 2nd rd and Teez Tabor in the 3rd rd would appear decent on paper, while a 2019 draft of Oruwariye in the 1st rd, Hockenson in the 2nd rd, Tavai in the 3rd rd and Harris in the 4th round would make more sense. The problem: you shouldn't have to re-arrange picks to make drafts make sense.

The great GMs hit in rounds 1 and 2 and find gems in rounds 3-5. We've found those gems, but Quinn's track record in the early rounds isn't good. That's troubling, and shows that Quinn isn't a great GM by any means.

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In my, "BRIEF," sports experience through high school... 😫 and coaching 3 youth teams after, you have to make others want to play for you. An the players have to trust coaches have their best interest. 

The Lions don't have anything of this coming from our coach. I think our players are playing for themselves right now, others got alienated and ignored who were our best players early, maybe offended players/locker-room acting like he walked into a train wreck when he was handed a average/slightly above after team on most accounts at the time. 

The worst part might be the arrogance. That he knows, and we don't, and it's just crazy to even question anything that's been done. Telling us there's a lot of work, like this State doesn't know what hard work looks like? Wow... Coming from a bigger dude who can hardly move, who's ridden the coat-tail of a HOF/GOAT coach as a career so far. Right... He knows, and we just don't. 

It's not just him though Quinn has added in this disaster. They're joined at the hip at this point with the drafts/signings/etc. Quinn is just as bad really because he didn't give Caldwell a proper RB that 9-7 which easily would of been the difference, imo. ( I know but go look at what they did vs what they could of done and tell me Quinn didn't try to get Caldwell fired.) It's amazing to me the Caldwell didn't get things that were clear weaknesses like TE/RB and his boy gets over allocated any position considered a need and players traded for that are positions of need. Had Caldwell gotten a capable RB I really think he'd never would of been fired. 

I did wante Caldwell fired, for a better coach, but this guy just went and got his own guy and basically attempted a rebuild on the fly which wasn't what I had in mind when wanting/calling for Caldwell to be fired. 

* Lions really need to get embarrassed this Thursday. The FORDS hate to be embarrassed and a loss like last week on the national spot-light will just about force the hand. I think he's fired either way at the end of the season, but a 0 point performance will just force the issue. 

Edited by SimbaWho

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