The Lions Den: The Anything Thread

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Goff: *gets injured during the preseason*

[Sllim Pickens]

The NHL draft is tonight.  This is absolutely the sport I know the least about the draft and prospects but wondering if people have any favorites for Detroit tonight? 

I am excited about the youth in all of the Detroit teams and tonight should help but the Tigers crappy start has me limiting my expectations. 

[Sllim Pickens]

Sounds like an interesting pick with Marco Kasper.  Similar feedback to when Stevie Y selected Seider and Raymond in that people think he may have been selected too early or that we passed on better talent.  Hope we have similar results as we did wtih Seider and Raymond. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Sounds like an interesting pick with Marco Kasper.  Similar feedback to when Stevie Y selected Seider and Raymond in that people think he may have been selected too early or that we passed on better talent.  Hope we have similar results as we did wtih Seider and Raymond. 

I think the big thing with Kasper is his level of compete and his hockey maturity. This is a guy with good size that is already defensively capable as an 18 year old center, who went toe-to-toe against men in a men's league playing serious minutes.

Most of the young men drafted are complete unknowns with loads of potential, and some never see the NHL ice. Kasper is a guy with a floor high enough to all but guarantee that he'll be able to play at the NHL level, whether that be 2nd line (likely best-case scenario) or 3rd/4th line.

[Sllim Pickens]

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I think the big thing with Kasper is his level of compete and his hockey maturity. This is a guy with good size that is already defensively capable as an 18 year old center, who went toe-to-toe against men in a men's league playing serious minutes.

Most of the young men drafted are complete unknowns with loads of potential, and some never see the NHL ice. Kasper is a guy with a floor high enough to all but guarantee that he'll be able to play at the NHL level, whether that be 2nd line (likely best-case scenario) or 3rd/4th line.

Stevie Y is the one GM in Detroit I trust with non-obvious picks at this point.  He has definitely proven he has an eye for talent and knows what it takes to build teams right.  I am never shocked when one if his top picks turns out great, and wouldn't be shocked if we get that from Kasper in a couple of years.  Not elite but better than expected of him at least. 

As far as the Red Wings in general, whats the biggest thing we are lacking?  Are there any free agents/trades this summer you think are realistic that can help get us back in the playoffs or is it just more development needed from young guys still?  Not sure where we are in the rebuild to know if its time to start spending money.  

Looks like we have some solid young players over in Sweden and in GR.  Hopefully a couple of them show out and make the team this year.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Stevie Y is the one GM in Detroit I trust with non-obvious picks at this point.  He has definitely proven he has an eye for talent and knows what it takes to build teams right.  I am never shocked when one if his top picks turns out great, and wouldn't be shocked if we get that from Kasper in a couple of years.  Not elite but better than expected of him at least. 

As far as the Red Wings in general, whats the biggest thing we are lacking?  Are there any free agents/trades this summer you think are realistic that can help get us back in the playoffs or is it just more development needed from young guys still?  Not sure where we are in the rebuild to know if its time to start spending money.  

Looks like we have some solid young players over in Sweden and in GR.  Hopefully a couple of them show out and make the team this year.  

For sure. I think that speaks to why Stevie went with Kasper, and why it's such a smart pick: there's such a low bust chance here. He's trying to build a winner and has already struck gold a handful of times. To keep on that pace, you have to hit with this pick... it's just considerably more difficult to hit with #8 than it is a pick in the top 4. Enter: a high-floor centerman with a strong hockey IQ.

We've got Seider and Hronek as locks at RHD, then a few other 3rd pair options (Lindstrom being one). At LHD, it's much less certain: Walman is solid, and Staal is a steady option that could be brought back, but Oesterle projects more as a 3rd pair, and we've got little else at the NHL level. As far as prospects go, we're loaded at LHD: Edvinsson, Buium, Wallinder and Johansson (and possibly Sebrango) all profile as NHL-capable defensemen, but it may take another few years to reap those rewards (Edvinsson being the possible exception). Tuomisto is pretty much the only legitimate RHD in the pipeline.

Forward is a different story: it seems that only Berggren and Soderblom stand to provide any sort of substantial contribution anytime soon.

I expect Yzerman to make a few low-cost signings, but I don't expect that we'll make a significant splash, as we're still 2-3 years away from making a substantial push. Keeping the key assets we have (like Bertuzzi) and developing our young players will be key for us to hit that window.

(And, just like that: Yzerman trades a 3rd for Ville Husso and signed him to a 3 year deal. Expect Husso and Nedeljkovic to get the big minutes at G for the next few years.)

Edited July 8, 2022 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[Sllim Pickens]

2 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

For sure. I think that speaks to why Stevie went with Kasper, and why it's such a smart pick: there's such a low bust chance here. He's trying to build a winner and has already struck gold a handful of times. To keep on that pace, you have to hit with this pick... it's just considerably more difficult to hit with #8 than it is a pick in the top 4. Enter: a high-floor centerman with a strong hockey IQ.

We've got Seider and Hronek as locks at RHD, then a few other 3rd pair options (Lindstrom being one). At LHD, it's much less certain: Walman is solid, and Staal is a steady option that could be brought back, but Oesterle projects more as a 3rd pair, and we've got little else at the NHL level. As far as prospects go, we're loaded at LHD: Edvinsson, Buium, Wallinder and Johansson (and possibly Sebrango) all profile as NHL-capable defensemen, but it may take another few years to reap those rewards (Edvinsson being the possible exception). Tuomisto is pretty much the only legitimate RHD in the pipeline.

Forward is a different story: it seems that only Berggren and Soderblom stand to provide any sort of substantial contribution anytime soon.

I expect Yzerman to make a few low-cost signings, but I don't expect that we'll make a significant splash, as we're still 2-3 years away from making a substantial push. Keeping the key assets we have (like Bertuzzi) and developing our young players will be key for us to hit that window.

(And, just like that: Yzerman trades a 3rd for Ville Husso and signed him to a 3 year deal. Expect Husso and Nedeljkovic to get the big minutes at G for the next few years.)

That trade sounds pretty low risk. Not sure on the money but Husso was solid in the regular season last year.  Hopefully Nedeljkovic improves some (likely with better defense in front of him) and he and Husso make a solid tandem until Cossa is ready. 

Being a couple of years away from truly competing makes sense.  Hopefully we make some progress and sneak into the playoffs this year with growth from the young guys and hopefully some new additions.  Would be helpful for our vets and the youngens to build some confidence.  If not then it would be nice to get some luck in the lotto and get one of the elite prospects next year.  Seeing some results is becoming necessary IMO in all of our sports in Detroit.  The city has loads of young potential superstars but need them to actually be superstars before too long.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

3 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

That trade sounds pretty low risk. Not sure on the money but Husso was solid in the regular season last year.  Hopefully Nedeljkovic improves some (likely with better defense in front of him) and he and Husso make a solid tandem until Cossa is ready. 

Being a couple of years away from truly competing makes sense.  Hopefully we make some progress and sneak into the playoffs this year with growth from the young guys and hopefully some new additions.  Would be helpful for our vets and the youngens to build some confidence.  If not then it would be nice to get some luck in the lotto and get one of the elite prospects next year.  Seeing some results is becoming necessary IMO in all of our sports in Detroit.  The city has loads of young potential superstars but need them to actually be superstars before too long.  

Part in bold is the key.

Getting into the playoffs this season would require that guys like Edvinsson step into key roles and play meaningful minutes right out of the gate. Certainly not impossible.

[Sllim Pickens]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Part in bold is the key.

Getting into the playoffs this season would require that guys like Edvinsson step into key roles and play meaningful minutes right out of the gate. Certainly not impossible.

For sure on the bold.  So much excitement just to see Tork hitting .195 with no power.  I hope Cade/Ivey, Hutch/Sewell etc really breakout as well as Tork and Greene getting it together down the stretch.  

And I didn't realize how far back of the playoffs we were this year.  Crazy how big of a gap between the haves and have nots in hockey.  A 16 point gap between 8 and 9 is crazy when there is the same gap between 2 and 8 in the East.  And only 22 points between 1 and 8.  And just in the Atlantic, we were 33 points back.  Just feels crazy as I still have in my head that we should be a playoff team every year since we were my whole life until 6 years ago.  I guess growth is all it is at this point then for expectations on the year.  Or more parody in the league to close that gap.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

36 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

For sure on the bold.  So much excitement just to see Tork hitting .195 with no power.  I hope Cade/Ivey, Hutch/Sewell etc really breakout as well as Tork and Greene getting it together down the stretch.  

And I didn't realize how far back of the playoffs we were this year.  Crazy how big of a gap between the haves and have nots in hockey.  A 16 point gap between 8 and 9 is crazy when there is the same gap between 2 and 8 in the East.  And only 22 points between 1 and 8.  And just in the Atlantic, we were 33 points back.  Just feels crazy as I still have in my head that we should be a playoff team every year since we were my whole life until 6 years ago.  I guess growth is all it is at this point then for expectations on the year.  Or more parody in the league to close that gap.  

Yep. Growing up, the Wings being in the playoffs was just assumed. When it came to our 25 straight years, pundits said "well, it's not hard to do" and "they let a ton of teams in each year", so you began to think that making the playoffs was just something that happened.

It doesn't help that Holland made desperation moves to try to keep that streak intact, which set the rebuild back even farther. But, hey, it led us to this, and I like where the team is headed, even if that means that truly competitive hockey is a few years away.

[diehardlionfan]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:51 PM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Yep. Growing up, the Wings being in the playoffs was just assumed. When it came to our 25 straight years, pundits said "well, it's not hard to do" and "they let a ton of teams in each year", so you began to think that making the playoffs was just something that happened.

It doesn't help that Holland made desperation moves to try to keep that streak intact, which set the rebuild back even farther. But, hey, it led us to this, and I like where the team is headed, even if that means that truly competitive hockey is a few years away.

Holland was gold for Detroit. 3 Stanley Cups is very impressive.

Unfortunately with a salary cap and the NHL draft structure it was inevitable that the team would be torn down and rebuilt. 

Detroit also was very fortunate that players like Datsyuk far exceeded expectations. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

Holland was gold for Detroit. 3 Stanley Cups is very impressive.

Unfortunately with a salary cap and the NHL draft structure it was inevitable that the team would be torn down and rebuilt. 

Detroit also was very fortunate that players like Datsyuk far exceeded expectations. 

See, I've always viewed Holland in a positive light, but I've heard convincing arguments that he was more of a beneficiary of a good situation and a slew of poor decisions did considerable harm to the franchise.

[diehardlionfan]

22 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

See, I've always viewed Holland in a positive light, but I've heard convincing arguments that he was more of a beneficiary of a good situation and a slew of poor decisions did considerable harm to the franchise.

Sorry but those convincing arguments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Holland inherited a team in the years of the Red Wings being one of the biggest spending orgs in the NHL. He had to make them cap compliant and was the most successful GM in the league following the caps introduction. I could build a winning NHL team with no cap and an open cheque book. People forget he ran the scouting as assistant GM and was involved in the selection of the players that made the core of the team.

Fans are great at suggesting GM’s make bad decisions but they frequently overlook the team scenario when the decision was made. 

His latest was signing Kassian to a multiple year contract following a career year. The Oilers needed forwards at the time of his signing. His play fell of a cliff and youngsters like Yamamoto and JP made the roster. He signed Hyman so a decision made because of need turned out bad because of his own excellent performance. He recognized the problem and fixed it. The cost was two picks but those picks are in 24, 25 which significantly lessens the blow. Personally I think draft picks are highly over rated beyond the top 10-15 players each year.

So a good decision is viewed poorly because of Hollands own abilities. 

He is a master at adding the right pieces to a team. Hasek, Chelios, in Detroit Hyman and Kane in Edmonton.

In the NHL you can’t win forever and it’s tough to replenish a roster when you have poor draft position every year for decades. So his tenure ended with sour grapes from fans who became entitled and had unrealistic expectations. They viewed his decline in the present rather than the circumstances that existed at the time of the decision.

 

 

[Sllim Pickens]

23 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

Sorry but those convincing arguments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Holland inherited a team in the years of the Red Wings being one of the biggest spending orgs in the NHL. He had to make them cap compliant and was the most successful GM in the league following the caps introduction. I could build a winning NHL team with no cap and an open cheque book. People forget he ran the scouting as assistant GM and was involved in the selection of the players that made the core of the team.

Fans are great at suggesting GM’s make bad decisions but they frequently overlook the team scenario when the decision was made. 

His latest was signing Kassian to a multiple year contract following a career year. The Oilers needed forwards at the time of his signing. His play fell of a cliff and youngsters like Yamamoto and JP made the roster. He signed Hyman so a decision made because of need turned out bad because of his own excellent performance. He recognized the problem and fixed it. The cost was two picks but those picks are in 24, 25 which significantly lessens the blow. Personally I think draft picks are highly over rated beyond the top 10-15 players each year.

So a good decision is viewed poorly because of Hollands own abilities. 

He is a master at adding the right pieces to a team. Hasek, Chelios, in Detroit Hyman and Kane in Edmonton.

In the NHL you can’t win forever and it’s tough to replenish a roster when you have poor draft position every year for decades. So his tenure ended with sour grapes from fans who became entitled and had unrealistic expectations. They viewed his decline in the present rather than the circumstances that existed at the time of the decision.

 

 

That last part is super accurate for everything.  Joe Dumars gets a bad rap for drafting Darko and the team falling apart at the end but people ignore how fun and amazing those four years were.  Same with Dombrowski, although he never delivered a championship, he brought us to two world series.  Now if he would have just spent some time and money on the bullpen, but in general he gave us the best run for the Tigers since the 80s.  Also happens with coaches.  Mark Dantonio had the greatest run at MSU since the segregation days and he is still trashed by fans because of the last couple of years of his run.  Its unfortunate, but fans always want to be on top.  I am sure there are New England fans trashing Belichek now that Brady is gone and won another SB and not realizing he still had their team in the playoffs with a rookie QB. 

[Old Guy]

Lions fans, I think the Lions finish second in the division this year. I think they go 8-9 and are on the right path for the first time in a very long time.