2021 draft talk

[sparky151]

33 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

Drafting for need is the reason this roster is in such disarray. Take the best prospect, period. If that’s Surtain. Fine. If it’s Chase, also fine.

At this point our quickest chance to compete is to load up on offense. This is generally an offensive/QB driven league. We can worry about the defense later, IMO.

Look at it this way: Would you rather draft a CB in hopes this bad defense turns into an average defense, or draft  a WR that could turn this good offense into a great offense? Give me the latter.

No, drafting poorly is why the roster is poor. We've thrown a lot of picks at the O-line and LB in recent years but none of those players has turned out as well as hoped at the time. 

 

I agree we shouldn't reach for a Rousseau or Slater at pick 5. But if the BPA is a QB, I'd hope you'd agree we're set at the position and he wouldn't add much to the team? Also agree that we should build out the offense but it's not because it will make us competitive in 2021 but to protect Burrow and give him weapons to further his development. The reason I'm ok with taking Parsons or Surtain is that they are very good players who will improve our team considerably. At the moment our only CBs under contract for 2021 are a guy who didn't play in 2020 (Waynes), and a guy who is inconsistent (Phillips). At LB we have 4 guys on their rookie deals who haven't had much impact. 

[Beck Bristow]

I think wide receiver at 5 helps us a lot. We start 3. There's only 2 starters on the roster. I like receiver value later, and we've had tons of success outside of round one there in the past, so personally I would prefer another direction,  but a legit top 5 receiver does improve the offense considerably. 

[SmittyBacall]

19 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

No, drafting poorly is why the roster is poor.

It’s a combination of both. The Price pick is a perfect example of that. 

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

We've thrown a lot of picks at the O-line and LB in recent years but none of those players has turned out as well as hoped at the time. 

This reinforces my point. Pick the best player, not areas of need.

47 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

But if the BPA is a QB, I'd hope you'd agree we're set at the position and he wouldn't add much to the team?

I think that goes without saying.

48 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

The reason I'm ok with taking Parsons or Surtain is that they are very good players who will improve our team considerably.

Will they, though? Has Isaiah Simmons or Jeff Okudah made any considerable impact for their respective teams in their first year? Both were considered very good players (I’m not writing off either, BTW). Even if Parsons or Surtain hit, they will make our defense marginally better, not considerably. We need pass rushers more than anything on defense. 

Also, could the same not be said for an impact, potentially-alpha receiver like Chase? First and second year receivers have been tearing up the league.

58 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

At the moment our only CBs under contract for 2021 are a guy who didn't play in 2020 (Waynes), and a guy who is inconsistent (Phillips).

There’s still a chance WJIII and/or Alexander resigns. A combination of Waynes, WJIII, Alexander, Phillips, and a draft pick form a formidable unit. I’m not saying it’s not a need, but if FA works out in our favour we should be okay. If WJIII doesn’t resign, Surtain or Farley might be an option. But again, that all depends on how they’re evaluated. I don’t want to forego the best player for need. Ever.

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

At LB we have 4 guys on their rookie deals who haven't had much impact. 

Still too early to tell. ADG, Pratt, and Logan Wilson have flashed. Bailey too.

[sparky151]

4 hours ago, Beck Bristow said:

I think wide receiver at 5 helps us a lot. We start 3. There's only 2 starters on the roster. I like receiver value later, and we've had tons of success outside of round one there in the past, so personally I would prefer another direction,  but a legit top 5 receiver does improve the offense considerably. 

Isn't that the thinking that led to Ross? Even if he stayed healthy and been a thousand yard receiver a couple of times, there's still only 1 ball and Burrow needs to be protected. We need to add a couple of WRs in free agency or the draft but it's not close to our biggest need. 

[sparky151]

3 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

It’s a combination of both. The Price pick is a perfect example of that. 

This reinforces my point. Pick the best player, not areas of need.

I think that goes without saying.

Will they, though? Has Isaiah Simmons or Jeff Okudah made any considerable impact for their respective teams in their first year? Both were considered very good players (I’m not writing off either, BTW). Even if Parsons or Surtain hit, they will make our defense marginally better, not considerably. We need pass rushers more than anything on defense. 

Also, could the same not be said for an impact, potentially-alpha receiver like Chase? First and second year receivers have been tearing up the league.

There’s still a chance WJIII and/or Alexander resigns. A combination of Waynes, WJIII, Alexander, Phillips, and a draft pick form a formidable unit. I’m not saying it’s not a need, but if FA works out in our favour we should be okay. If WJIII doesn’t resign, Surtain or Farley might be an option. But again, that all depends on how they’re evaluated. I don’t want to forego the best player for need. Ever.

Still too early to tell. ADG, Pratt, and Logan Wilson have flashed. Bailey too.

Since we already have a couple of good WRs, Chase won't make much of an impact. Keeping Burrow uninjured is much more important and will have the biggest impact.

 

Also your argument for the LBs is the same argument that pushed Zeitler and Whitworth out the door so Ogbuehi and Fisher could have their chance. We shouldn't pass on an elite LB because we have mediocre guys who may get better. Chase isn't likely to be as good as Higgins and Boyd for a couple of years while Parson would be our best LB from day one. 

[INbengalfan]

53 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

Since we already have a couple of good WRs, Chase won't make much of an impact. Keeping Burrow uninjured is much more important and will have the biggest impact.

 

Also your argument for the LBs is the same argument that pushed Zeitler and Whitworth out the door so Ogbuehi and Fisher could have their chance. We shouldn't pass on an elite LB because we have mediocre guys who may get better. Chase isn't likely to be as good as Higgins and Boyd for a couple of years while Parson would be our best LB from day one. 

One, no one is saying ignore the OL.  NO one.  But if Sewell is gone, then many of us are saying don't reach for an OT just to take one.  

It's funny on one hand you say that rookie receivers won't contribute much, but use Higgins as part of the evidence.

If Sewell is gone, trading back should be the first route.  But if it isn't there, take the best player.  Want an example of that?  How about Whitworth.  He wasn't a clear need, per say, but we took him, played him at OG, and when Levi was intentionally injured by Porter, it was sure nice to have him already on the roster.

 

I may be wrong, but I heard this draft is more than one round long.  Having said that, there could be plenty of OTs sitting there in the second and third.  So while Sewell may be more desirable than Chase, taking Chase and an OT in the second still addresses the need.  If we get Jax, Lawson, Alexander and another DE signed, I'd be fine with taking four linemen.  And if it isn't Sewell, Chase and the next four rounds is fine with me.  If we grab a guy like Leatherwood in the second, then Jonah stays at LT.  And even if guys aren't there for our liking in the second, guys like Faleele could be had in the third.

[SmittyBacall]

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

Since we already have a couple of good WRs, Chase won't make much of an impact.

This just simply isn’t true. We saw what a myriad of rookie receivers accomplished across the league this year, including Higgins. Chase is more talented than the majority of them AND he’ll have starting snaps. He will contribute in a major way his first year.

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

Also your argument for the LBs is the same argument that pushed Zeitler and Whitworth out the door so Ogbuehi and Fisher could have their chance. We shouldn't pass on an elite LB because we have mediocre guys who may get better.

We’re arguing in circles. I don’t care if we take Parsons, as long as he’s the best prospect on the board. But if there are equally rated prospects on the board, position premium matters. 

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

Chase isn't likely to be as good as Higgins and Boyd

If you say so. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by SmittyBacall

[Johnny Nix]

It’s silly to say JaMarr Chase isn’t going to be good. 
 

That being said, I think the drop off from him to the next few WRs isn’t that big. I think if Sewell is gone we need to trade back. 

[THE DUKE]

2 hours ago, Johnny Nix said:

It’s silly to say JaMarr Chase isn’t going to be good. 
 

That being said, I think the drop off from him to the next few WRs isn’t that big. I think if Sewell is gone we need to trade back. 

That requires someone wanting to trade up.  Would you be happy if we traded from 5 to 12 for a 4th and 5th rd pick? 

[Beck Bristow]

6 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Isn't that the thinking that led to Ross? Even if he stayed healthy and been a thousand yard receiver a couple of times, there's still only 1 ball and Burrow needs to be protected. We need to add a couple of WRs in free agency or the draft but it's not close to our biggest need. 

I didn't say it was.  I literally said I hope we wait, but receiver is undoubtedly a need.  There may only  be one ball, but they have to cover everyone, and we need someone more dynamic than Alex Ericson running routes.  

[BengalsBite]

13 hours ago, sparky151 said:

there's still only 1 ball

there’s only 1 ball. you’re right. that 1 ball was thrown at AJ Green 104 times this year and he’s gone. so who are those 104 targets going to go to? (7.7 tgts per game with burrow a 123 target 16 game pace)

13 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Since we already have a couple of good WRs, Chase won't make much of an impact

chase would be a phenomenal player to take those 104 targets and be a major contributor to the offense on day one. 

13 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Chase isn't likely to be as good as Higgins and Boyd for a couple of years while Parson would be our best LB from day one.

higgins was arguably our best receiver last year and he was a 2nd round rookie. imagine what a top 5 receiver with burrow throwing him the ball could do. 

as for LB, devin white 51.9 pff grade his rookie year after being the #5 pick. logan wilson had a 54.7 grade in the games he played in this year. are we really sure parsons would be our best LB from day 1? LBs tend to take a while to acclimate to the nfl, sorta like TEs

Edited January 14, 2021 by BengalsBite

[BengalsBite]

to add onto the targets for aj green. remember how burrow and green were so close to hitting on multiple big plays early in the year and how much they struggled to get on the same page. if you give those targets, especially to a guy he already has a connection with, we probably win some of those games early in the season 

[sparky151]

We already drafted AJ Green's replacement. His name is Tee Higgins. If you're looking for a replacement for Ross or Ericson or Thomas, fine. Chase is a better prospect than any of them. But replacing those guys isn't a first round need. It would be nice to have a front office that can walk and chew gum at the same time. But given their abject failures on the O-line in recent years, they need to be monomaniacal about fixing it. The difference between first and 4th round receivers is how quickly they can get open. Protect Burrow and average receivers are good enough. If we fail to protect Burrow, it won't matter if our WRs are elite. 

[BengalsBite]

55 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

We already drafted AJ Green's replacement. His name is Tee Higgins.

if tee higgins replaced aj green (somehow he replaced him while still playing on the field at the same time) then who is going to take over higgins’ 108 targets?

Edited January 14, 2021 by BengalsBite

[INbengalfan]

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

We already drafted AJ Green's replacement. His name is Tee Higgins. If you're looking for a replacement for Ross or Ericson or Thomas, fine. Chase is a better prospect than any of them. But replacing those guys isn't a first round need. It would be nice to have a front office that can walk and chew gum at the same time. But given their abject failures on the O-line in recent years, they need to be monomaniacal about fixing it. The difference between first and 4th round receivers is how quickly they can get open. Protect Burrow and average receivers are good enough. If we fail to protect Burrow, it won't matter if our WRs are elite. 

This is becoming too circular.  So I want to know who you would target with Sewell off the board at 5, but no viable trade back options on the table.  I think the rest of us have put an order to what we each would do, but all I hear from you is we have to go OL.  So what plan would you lay out?  Who do you value as worthy on the OL if Sewell is gone?  Because we all get it, the line needs fixed.  But some of us don't want to reach for need, when the player we really are targeting goes off the board right before we pick.  That's how we ended up reaching with Price, because we were absolutely stunned Detroit traded up over us for Ragnow.

Slater?

Darrisaw?

Cosmi?

Leatherwood?

 

Giving