incognito_man Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 First off, sorry no video yet. Situation: 4th and 1 with 2:16 remaining in game, Dallas is down 4. Play: Hand-off to Zeke Elliott up the middle. Result: Gets absolutely stuffed by the hardcore GB defense ....buuut Replay: Zeke extends ball to line of gain, brings ball back voluntarily in his arms and the play ends with him (and ball) well behind the line of gain (he was not pushed back any further, he was just stopped). Overruled, Dallas given first down My take (borrowed from someone else in GB forum who pointed this out, sorry, forgot who and can't give credit). This is NOT a scoring play and extending the ball and voluntarily retracting it PRIOR to the play ending should not be granted as forward progress. The rule as written (Rule 7, Section 3, Article 3): Quote ARTICLE 3. FORWARD PART OF BALL The forward part of the ball in its position when it is declared dead in the field of play shall be the determining point in measuring any distance gained or lost. Seems clear to me the first down should NOT have been granted. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 That's a good question. I'm not sure. I guess it would depend if they determined his forward progress was stopped when he was extending the ball. If not, I would think you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think that if you are bringing the ball back voluntarily, you shouldn't be given that spot. It's like giving ground on a return or after a catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I was saying the same thing, it's the same as a ball carrier going back on his own to try and gain extra yards but gets tackled. If you reach out, you have to be going down for it to count, if you're still not down, than the retraction is where the ball is spotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, jrry32 said: That's a good question. I'm not sure. I guess it would depend if they determined his forward progress was stopped when he was extending the ball. If not, I would think you're right. Agree with this. I didn’t see the play, but for that to be the call, I would think his progress would have to be stopped just after or during the extension. If the play went on longer, then it’d be the equivalent to a player getting the yardage for a first, but running backwards and then being tackled. That’s my view, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Brought this up in the Game Day thread in General. I mean just reading and interpreting the rules I'd say no it was wrong. But we all know the NFL has unpublished opinions on interpretations that the refs know and we don't so I can't say it was definitely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cakeshoppe Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think regardless of how it's written, in practice the forward progress rule is is that you get the furthest forward spot that you have while in contact with an opponent. The language of the rulebook specifically talks about being held or restrained, but there's lots of circumstances where that wording doesn't really apply that are still treated as forward progress (being hit by a shoulder tackle that knocks you backward but doesn't hold or restrain you still entitles you to forward progress, for example, even if it just causes you to run out of bounds on your own volition, while moving backward). If memory serves, a runner isn't entitled to clock stoppage if they run out of bounds (backward) on their own volition after their forward progress has been stopped in bounds, for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think both the spirit of the rule as was as the actual wording center around defense-caused movement backward. If a defender doesn't cause the ball/player to move further backward, forward progress should not apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riceman80 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Aaron Rodgers >>>>> The rule book In seriousness tho, I don't agree with it. If he'd have left it extended until the whistle yes but to me, it was a self retraction of the ball before the whistle was blown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packer_ESP Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 6 hours ago, Cakeshoppe said: I think regardless of how it's written, in practice the forward progress rule is is that you get the furthest forward spot that you have while in contact with an opponent. The language of the rulebook specifically talks about being held or restrained, but there's lots of circumstances where that wording doesn't really apply that are still treated as forward progress (being hit by a shoulder tackle that knocks you backward but doesn't hold or restrain you still entitles you to forward progress, for example, even if it just causes you to run out of bounds on your own volition, while moving backward). If memory serves, a runner isn't entitled to clock stoppage if they run out of bounds (backward) on their own volition after their forward progress has been stopped in bounds, for instance. In that case it's still an opponent causing you to move backwards. In this case it was absolutely voluntary, it was treated as if it was the redzone instead of just a first down marker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriminalMind Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Technically should not be 1st down. Voluntarily bringing the ball back while not being taken to the ground directly, should mean spotting the ball back. It was interpreted that he was directly taken to the ground (stopped) do given the reach yardage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 isnt it all about forward progress? SO if they decided his forward progress was stopped when he had the ball extended, that would be the correct spot if im not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quark3 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: isnt it all about forward progress? SO if they decided his forward progress was stopped when he had the ball extended, that would be the correct spot if im not mistaken. To my understanding, the rule is about 'progress', because sometimes, a runner does try to move backwards - you give ground to gain more ground. In this case, Zeke brought the ball back towards his body to protect it from being knocked out and fumbling. That's valid backwards-progress, so to speak, so it was wrong for the refs to say his "forward progress" was stopped when he was trying, and succeeding, in moving backwards. It's kind of like when in a goal-line situation, a QB might do a dive over the line and stick the ball out quickly, then pull it back to his body. Why does he pull it back? In case sticking it forward didn't break the plane, in which case he needs to protect the ball by pulling it back to his body. If while diving he sticks it out, doesn't break the plane, and then a defender knocks it out of his hands as he's pulling it back, that's a fumble. But, if the forward thrust does break the plane, it doesn't matter if the ball is then knocked out, because the instant the ball breaks the plane it's a TD - the runner couldn't "undo" that fact even if he wanted to. But this situation was different, because reaching the 19 yard line with the ball doesn't automatically stop the play. So when Zeke pulled the ball back to his body and then was tackled, that's where the ball should have been spotted, at his body, not at the forward-thrust point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLick12 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Yeah to me, it shouldn't have been overturned. You stick the ball out over the goal line because the play is dead once the ball crosses the plane. The play isn't necessarily dead if you extend the ball on an average play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 41 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: isnt it all about forward progress? SO if they decided his forward progress was stopped when he had the ball extended, that would be the correct spot if im not mistaken. He reached the ball forward again to establish a "new" forward progress, it doesn't just instantly stop once he reaches out. They usually let about a second or so of play go by in any game with the ball carrier not advancing before they blow a play dead. He needs to hold that ball out there to get the foward progress, by quickly retracting it, he should have waved that progress and it should've gone back to where it was spotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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