New GM and HC candidates?

[diehardlionfan]

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Well a director of one aspect of scouting is an AGM.  Its like an athletic director has 4 assistant athletic directors under them that do various roles.  Holmes (who appears to be the choice) has been in the league 18 years (same as Dodds) in various roles and worked his way up, similarly to Dodds.  He was with a team that went to the Super Bowl with their key players being guys they drafted.  Now I can agree Dodds would be a solid choice, but he really doesn't have any more experience than Holmes.  

Saying he is Quinn 2.0 is using history to evaluate the current candidates, which smart corporations don't do.  Just because one person who was on a team who was successful with the greatest coach in history, who hired a defensive coordinator that ran that genius coaches system instead of creating his own, doesn't mean the next situation will go bad. You can look at Lions history and hiring experienced has gone bad, hiring rookie has gone bad, and neither really have gone well.  So if you want to base it on Lions history alone, we just shouldn't hire anyone because they will fail.  Holmes comes from a situation with a young, inexperienced head coach and their GM was a pro scout and director of player personnel prior to being a GM.  So it worked there.  It worked in SF.  It has worked many times.  

And I get that Cowher isn't just out of football, but has absolutely zero experience on the business side or scouting side.  How would his experience as a coach in a league that was very different 15 years ago mean he is qualified to be a GM or more.  Now I am not saying I wouldn't give it a shot, similarly to Spielman, I am just confused on you wanting experience but then wanting guys who are very unexperienced.  

 

The Lions have just followed the same path they tried unsuccessfully numerous times. Who was the last GM hire that had experience? 

A director of player personnel is not an assistant GM. They are a department head. An A/GM is involved in more aspects of the team decision making process. An oline coach isn’t an assistant HC or assistant coordinator unless designated and assigned the appropriate duties.

Slim, with all due respect those other organizations have had far more success than the Lions. They are far stronger organizationally than the Lions. They are far more credible.

I think you miss my underlying point. The Lions lack football competence! They have a team President whose background is running a charity. The owner has no experience etc. They hired one consultant (Spielman) and brought in a handful of business people with no football experience. As an organization they lack the experience and track record of hiring the right people. If you recall I also stated that I thought they should’ve hired individuals like Cowher as consultants during the search. 

Cowher was HC of the Steelers when they didn’t have a GM.  Only once, in my recollection did Dan Rooney ever intervene with Cowher. Rooney convinced Cowher that Big Ben should be the pick. I can’t recall who Cowher wanted but it wasn’t Ben. Cowher answered to the Rooney family. He was very involved in the scouting, drafting, free agent process. He has far more hands on experience with roster creation, management etc. than a department head. He’s won everything there is to win including manager of the year awards. He has a proven record of managing people successfully, played the game and worked his way up the coaching ladder. He’s also a HOF inductee. Suggesting that he’s inexperienced is ignoring the reality of the Steelers structure during his tenure as HC.

Its similar to suggesting BB doesn’t have GM experience.

If Cowher wanted to return to football he would immediately have numerous offers. Frankly Holmes isn’t even comparable.

Its all moot now anyway. Holmes us the guy. I just hope they got it right.

 

 

[Millenhater]

The one thing that he could help us get is Josh Reynolds.  He's a guy I was going to put in my mock drafts as a WR to target in FA.  

I'm trying here...

[diehardlionfan]

21 minutes ago, Millenhater said:

Well we also just gave the Rams two 3rd round picks for this.  That alone makes me think this was a bad idea.  Seriously I don't care if Dodds didn't do well in his interview that is the guy we should have gone after.  I feel like this is going to end badly...

So is Arthur Smith the head coach then?  The fact that they rushed to interview him twice so quickly makes me feel he is the one.  I'm pretty sure all of your coaching candidates are link to the GM candidates, that is why we are interview them both separately.  It's a package deal.  If you like the GM but you don't like their HC then they are out.  

I'm not sure Smith or Holmes really do it for me.  They aren't terrible but I think we will look to replace them in 4 years...

I might be wrong but those aren’t Lions picks they’re compensatory picks. I could be wrong though.

Edited January 14, 2021 by diehardlionfan

[BZski]

8 minutes ago, Millenhater said:

I get that we didn't give any away but we allowed another team to get them and that's even more of a chance that talent doesn't slip to us in the 4th or that a team we compete with can continue to get talent to build their roster.

Yea that whole thing about giving teams picks for getting a minority hired is BS! Plus, I am reading Holmes is deeply involved in political activism! Greeeeeeeaattt!

[diehardlionfan]

16 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Out of curiosity: if it's the right GM, and his former team happens to get some picks, why is that a bad thing?

It’s a bad thing because the Lions can’t afford to throw away draft picks. It’s a bad thing because there’s qualified people that don’t require giving up draft picks.

However I think the Rams get comp picks not the Lions picks.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

It’s a bad thing because the Lions can’t afford to throw away draft picks. It’s a bad thing because there’s qualified people that don’t require giving up draft picks.

However I think the Rams get comp picks not the Lions picks.

Yeah, the picks are comps and definitely do not come from the Lions.

Edited January 14, 2021 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[diehardlionfan]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Yeah, the picks are comps and definitely do not come from the Lions.

So the only negative would be the Rams getting two additional good picks. That doesn’t concern me. 

What are your thoughts on the hire?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, diehardlionfan said:

So the only negative would be the Rams getting two additional good picks. That doesn’t concern me. 

What are your thoughts on the hire?

Yeah, the picks don't concern me at all.

I haven't done nearly as much research as the group of individuals charged to make these decisions and I certainly wasn't in the room during the interviews. He seems to have a track record of solid draft-day decisions and must've interviewed well. I'll support the hire until his decisions give me a reason not to.

[diehardlionfan]

3 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Yeah, the picks don't concern me at all.

I haven't done nearly as much research as the group of individuals charged to make these decisions and I certainly wasn't in the room during the interviews. He seems to have a track record of solid draft-day decisions and must've interviewed well. I'll support the hire until his decisions give me a reason not to.

He has certainly done a robust job of drafting. I’m not enamoured with the choice but I’m going to reserve judgement until I see who he selects as HC.

I will be much more positive if they hire an experienced head coach.

I suspect it will be either Staley or Smith at this point which will concern me greatly.

[Sllim Pickens]

52 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

The Lions have just followed the same path they tried unsuccessfully numerous times. Who was the last GM hire that had experience? 

A director of player personnel is not an assistant GM. They are a department head. An A/GM is involved in more aspects of the team decision making process. An oline coach isn’t an assistant HC or assistant coordinator unless designated and assigned the appropriate duties.

Slim, with all due respect those other organizations have had far more success than the Lions. They are far stronger organizationally than the Lions. They are far more credible.

I think you miss my underlying point. The Lions lack football competence! They have a team President whose background is running a charity. The owner has no experience etc. They hired one consultant (Spielman) and brought in a handful of business people with no football experience. As an organization they lack the experience and track record of hiring the right people. If you recall I also stated that I thought they should’ve hired individuals like Cowher as consultants during the search. 

Cowher was HC of the Steelers when they didn’t have a GM.  Only once, in my recollection did Dan Rooney ever intervene with Cowher. Rooney convinced Cowher that Big Ben should be the pick. I can’t recall who Cowher wanted but it wasn’t Ben. Cowher answered to the Rooney family. He was very involved in the scouting, drafting, free agent process. He has far more hands on experience with roster creation, management etc. than a department head. He’s won everything there is to win including manager of the year awards. He has a proven record of managing people successfully, played the game and worked his way up the coaching ladder. He’s also a HOF inductee. Suggesting that he’s inexperienced is ignoring the reality of the Steelers structure during his tenure as HC.

Its similar to suggesting BB doesn’t have GM experience.

If Cowher wanted to return to football he would immediately have numerous offers. Frankly Holmes isn’t even comparable.

Its all moot now anyway. Holmes us the guy. I just hope they got it right.

 

 

I'm not trying to discredit or say Holmes is a better option. Just saying trying to understand your desires.  They seem all over the place and that comes down to the organization being awful from the top down.  Which I get and agree with.  Its part of why I haven't gotten overly invested in the GM/coach search because I am just guessing it will turn out like they always do.  But I also won't crap on a candidate who was a good candidate and wanted by other teams and has experience that will help him do the job, just because he wasn't the top of my list when this started.  

The last "experienced hire" is Martin Mayhew. He was AGM before getting the GM role.  Thats similar experience to what you wanted in Dodds. 

I am guessing Cowher has had many opportunities to come back to football, I am guessing the Lions wouldn't be at the top of his list. Same with a lot of these other "experienced" guys everyone is clamoring for.  Why do people get mad we didn't hire Schneider when he stayed where he was and likely wasn't a real candidate, just using us as help to get a new contract?  

[diehardlionfan]

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I'm not trying to discredit or say Holmes is a better option. Just saying trying to understand your desires.  They seem all over the place and that comes down to the organization being awful from the top down.  Which I get and agree with.  Its part of why I haven't gotten overly invested in the GM/coach search because I am just guessing it will turn out like they always do.  But I also won't crap on a candidate who was a good candidate and wanted by other teams and has experience that will help him do the job, just because he wasn't the top of my list when this started.  

The last "experienced hire" is Martin Mayhew. He was AGM before getting the GM role.  Thats similar experience to what you wanted in Dodds. 

I am guessing Cowher has had many opportunities to come back to football, I am guessing the Lions wouldn't be at the top of his list. Same with a lot of these other "experienced" guys everyone is clamoring for.  Why do people get mad we didn't hire Schneider when he stayed where he was and likely wasn't a real candidate, just using us as help to get a new contract?  

Come on Slim. Mayhem was A/GM in a failed organization. That’s not the same at all. You don’t hire the A/GM of the worst GM in NFL history.

I agree about Cowher. I’ve said all along the only way they get him or the Steelers GM is an equity stake and the Fords would never do that.

Im only all over the place because you don’t understand what I’m saying.

The Lions hiring an inexperienced GM is far different than a successful organization taking a flyer on inexperience.

The Lions are terrible as an organization. They have decades of incompetence.

I have said all along I value experience and previous success. I don’t see a director as an assistant GM rather a department head. Directors are people that provide the GM with input and don’t have authority. I wanted someone with a track record of having authority and the power to make the decisions not someone who is a resource. It would be a different story if the Lions as an organization had any history of success, they don’t! 

I’ve also said that hiring experience in one of the positions would make me feel better about inexperience in the other. A successful, experienced HC will make me feel better.

A sound organization can much better take chances on these up and comers. A dysfunctional organization doesn’t have a level of competence to support the inexperienced hire.

Its very unlikely to turn around organizational dysfunction with inexperience. You don’t field a team of rookies and they shouldn’t be creating management of inexperienced people. They just did that for gosh sakes. 

If you are auditing a failed corporation do you suggest they bring in an inexperienced individual or would you recommend an individual that has a history of successfully turning around failed companies? 

I would’ve much preferred an experienced GM or an A/GM that had authority over areas of the team than a support person. The Lions simply aren’t competent in scouting, pro personnel etc. so Holmes inexperience will be compounded. 

I expect Holmes will have a positive impact on the draft provided he makes the required changes in the scouting department. After all he will be basing decisions on the data and opinions of his scouts so they better be good.

Which organizations has he been responsible for? How many people has he hired? What was his involvement in coaching hires? Does he recognize his shortcomings or is he a man of ego that doesn’t take suggestions etc. well? He has no experience in trades. They in effect hired a GM with experience in one aspect of the job. I think that’s a poor direction.

The Lions need lots of changes and a director of college scouting isn’t, in my opinion experienced enough to make those changes properly. He may be brilliant and he may in fact work out but the odds are against it.

As near as I can tell the only person involved in the process that knows football was Spielman. The others they brought in were Detroit area business folks and charity administrators. The entire approach of this organization is ridiculous.

Leading the incompetence is Wood, the Fords yes man. He sits in a position that would be better filled by someone with football knowledge.

So from my experience the Lions have once again hired one of the flavour of the day candidates that lacks the breadth of experience required to rebuild an organization. The Lions dysfunction is much greater than the roster.

 

[LionArkie]

I'm with DHLF on this on almost every point.  I really think this is not a 1:1 comparison with other teams in the league.  The Lions have never done anything.  There are expansion teams with more success. This team has no top person who has built anything in terms of football or won. So, we brought Spielman in to help, that's great. Remind me again what he has won? It's a feel good story.  Rod Wood is still in charge, but doesn't know football.  This is looking awesome.  Now, I'm admittedly disappointed in the hire. I was hoping for Rick Smith. He had a playoff experienced team, drafted well ran things inside and out. This was the type of experience I was hoping for.

I'm now hoping we take someone with hc experience.  Although not as sexy as some of the other unproven names out there, I'm on board with the Marvin Lewis hire. If they would have hired an experienced GM, I would have felt better with a first time HC.

This feels like every other time to me.

[LionArkie]

I'm calling it now, Bowles will be our new HC.

[Lionized]

15 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I'm calling it now, Bowles will be our new HC.

Don’t put that evil on me 

[LionArkie]

15 minutes ago, Lionized said:

Don’t put that evil on me 

It just seems like a Lions move, lol.