2021 NBA Draft Thread

[NYRaider]

8 minutes ago, Texansfan713 said:

Dont get me wrong. I really love Green as a prospect.  I have him ranked 2a/b with Mobley, but I think Cunningham is still a better prospect.  You cant really knock Cade's athleticism.  Luka isnt every athletic and he is doing well. 

Cade isn't Luka though. Luka is a much more skilled player overall and one of, if not the, most skilled players to come into the league in a decade. He has an advanced handle and basketball IQ which is why he thrives as a playmaker and is able to consistently get to the rim. 

In 3 years in the NBA has almost a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio and almost 60% of his shots have come at the rim. In comparison Cade averaged more turnovers than assists this season and less than 40% of his shots came at the rim. 

Everyone hated on RJ Barrett for his inefficiency but he was more efficient as a scorer and a playmaker than Cade at Duke. The only thing that Cade did better was shoot the 3 ball. 

[Texansfan713]

20 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Cade isn't Luka though. Luka is a much more skilled player overall and one of, if not the, most skilled players to come into the league in a decade. He has an advanced handle and basketball IQ which is why he thrives as a playmaker and is able to consistently get to the rim. 

In 3 years in the NBA has almost a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio and almost 60% of his shots have come at the rim. In comparison Cade averaged more turnovers than assists this season and less than 40% of his shots came at the rim. 

Everyone hated on RJ Barrett for his inefficiency but he was more efficient as a scorer and a playmaker than Cade at Duke. The only thing that Cade did better was shoot the 3 ball. 

RJ had tons of help though.  Cade basically has to do everything for Ok st.  RJ didnt have the offense ran through him like Cade.  Cade will be fine.  Not knocking Green but Cade's floor is already better than Green's. 

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, Texansfan713 said:

RJ had tons of help though.  Cade basically has to do everything for Ok st.  RJ didnt have the offense ran through him like Cade.  Cade will be fine.  Not knocking Green but Cade's floor is already better than Green's. 

That Duke team was one of the worst shooting teams in the country and had terrible spacing. 

I posted this earlier but I'll share it again: 

Quote

In 2 NCAA tournament games Cade averaged 17.5 points, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 assists, and 2.5 turnovers while shooting 28% FG and 31% 3FG against Liberty (154th in adjusted defensive rating) and Oregon State (89th in adjusted defensive rating). 

On the biggest stage Cade struggled against two teams that don't have a player that will ever even sniff a shot to play in the NBA. Liberty had the 4th worst defensive rating of any team to even make the tournament and Oregon State had the second worst defensive rating of any Power 5 Conference team to make the field. Not to mention Oregon State finished 10-10 in the Pac-12 and had to win their conference tournament to even get a bid. 

Cade's floor might be higher than Green's but the NBA draft is about upside. The two biggest question marks about Green were his strength/frame and how that would effect his ability to finish against better competition and his shooting stroke. Against better competition in the G-League this year he was excellent finishing around the rim (53% on 2P FGA) and shot the ball at a decent clip (2.1 3PM at a 37% clip | 83% FT). In comparison Cade shot 46% on 2P FGA, 84% FT, and 2.3 3PM on a 40% clip. 

I still have Cade 2/3 on my board but I'd personally take Jalen Green over him. Tall, lengthy wings with Green's athleticism, quickness, and explosiveness don't come around that often. His ceiling is a 25+ ppg type of scorer and good secondary playmaker on good efficiency. He can be a guy that can carry an offense as a #1 scorer, I'm not sure if Cade has that same type of ceiling.   

[NYRaider]

It took Zach LaVine some time to figure it out and he has dealt with injuries throughout his career but that's who I'd compare Green too. 

LaVine is stuck on a terrible team but he has been one of the best players in the league this season averaging 28/5/5 on 52% FG | 44% 3FG | 87% FT. 

[Mox]

6'8 guards/wings who can score, run an offense, and create for others are more valuable than volume scorers. I'm not going to pretend I've watched a ton of either guy but from what I have seen Oklahoma State is a terrible and selfish team. The assist/turnover numbers don't do Cade justice.

[Oregon Ducks]

1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

6'8 guards/wings who can score, run an offense, and create for others are more valuable than volume scorers. I'm not going to pretend I've watched a ton of either guy but from what I have seen Oklahoma State is a terrible and selfish team. The assist/turnover numbers don't do Cade justice.

He doesn’t create as much as people think and he can’t get to the rim. His shot is fine but it’s not like he’s Steph Curry. Also, he’s going to be a liability on defense.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

6'8 guards/wings who can score, run an offense, and create for others are more valuable than volume scorers. I'm not going to pretend I've watched a ton of either guy but from what I have seen Oklahoma State is a terrible and selfish team. The assist/turnover numbers don't do Cade justice.

Cade's scoring was largely in part to how well he shot the 3 this season. But it's only a 27 game sample size in which he made 2.3 3's per game at a 40% clip. When he played for team USA in the U19 world cup last summer he shot 7% from 3 and in over his AAU career he shot 35% from 3. IIRC he averaged like 6 assists per game his senior year of HS playing on what many considered the greatest HS team of all time. 

This is what Givony said about him during the season: 

Quote

• Lacks a degree of explosiveness beating defenders from a standstill. Relies more on size and strength to get by opponents in the half court.

• Struggles to score over length in traffic at times. Can he be efficient creating offense as a No. 1 option?

And this is what the Stepien said about him before the season: 

Quote

 

• Compared to prospects of similar archetypes, he should land in the B- range athletically

• Physical profile doesn’t jump off the screen in any one particular way—muscle mass, length, quick-twitch, coordination—but his overall package of physical tools is very solid

 

On the season only 30% of his shots came at the rim and he shot 57% on those attempts. For comparison other wings that have gone in the top 3 in recent years such as Anthony Edwards took 27% of his shots at the rim and shot 70% on those attempts and RJ Barrett took 39% of his shots at the rim and shot 65% on those attempts. 

[NYRaider]

23 minutes ago, Oregon Ducks said:

He doesn’t create as much as people think and he can’t get to the rim. His shot is fine but it’s not like he’s Steph Curry. Also, he’s going to be a liability on defense.

That's the biggest issue I've had while watching Cade play this season. He's just not very explosive so he doesn't get too or finish around the rim that well. And for a guy that has been hyped up as a Luka-like passer he wasn't great as a creator this season and averaged more turnovers than assists. 

Oklahoma State's team wasn't great but 28% FG and more TO than assists against Liberty and Oregon State, two of the worst defensive teams in the tournament, wasn't a great look. 

[Mox]

35 minutes ago, Oregon Ducks said:

He doesn’t create as much as people think and he can’t get to the rim. His shot is fine but it’s not like he’s Steph Curry. Also, he’s going to be a liability on defense.

He's a 6'8 PG. Even if he is a liability on D (which I don't agree with) it'll be super easy to hide him on the opposing teams worst offensive player. The only times Oklahoma State looked like an actual basketball team last night was when Cade had the ball in his hands and made all the decisions.

12 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Cade's scoring was largely in part to how well he shot the 3 this season. But it's only a 27 game sample size in which he made 2.3 3's per game at a 40% clip. When he played for team USA in the U19 world cup last summer he shot 7% from 3 and in over his AAU career he shot 35% from 3. IIRC he averaged like 6 assists per game his senior year of HS playing on what many considered the greatest HS team of all time. 

This is what Givony said about him during the season: 

And this is what the Stepien said about him before the season: 

On the season only 30% of his shots came at the rim and he shot 57% on those attempts. For comparison other wings that have gone in the top 3 in recent years such as Anthony Edwards took 27% of his shots at the rim and shot 70% on those attempts and RJ Barrett took 39% of his shots at the rim and shot 65% on those attempts. 

Cade is by no means a perfect player but he's clearly crafty and heady enough that he'll be able to score in the NBA. Especially if he's as good a shooter as he looked this season. He lacks explosiveness but Luka and LaMelo aren't all that explosive either. The NCAA and his team in general do him no favors. In a more opened up game with superior teammates you'll get to see his game flourish a lot more. He fits the most valuable archetype in the NBA to a T whereas super athletes who score and offer little else aren't truly all that valuable most of the time.

Let's look at your example with Lavine. I personally wouldn't have him in my top 25 players in the league, and he certainly had no argument at all until this year despite being a dynamic scorer because he lacks in other areas. The most impactful players routinely are those who can score and create for others on an elite level. If you can only have one playmaking tends to be more valuable than individual scoring. Chris Paul on the Thunder/Suns is an example of that. Elite playmaking makes everyone else better. Cade has shown a lot of flashes that he can be that guy when the opportunity is presented.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

Cade is by no means a perfect player but he's clearly crafty and heady enough that he'll be able to score in the NBA. Especially if he's as good a shooter as he looked this season. He lacks explosiveness but Luka and LaMelo aren't all that explosive either. The NCAA and his team in general do him no favors. In a more opened up game with superior teammates you'll get to see his game flourish a lot more. He fits the most valuable archetype in the NBA to a T whereas super athletes who score and offer little else aren't truly all that valuable most of the time.

Let's look at your example with Lavine. I personally wouldn't have him in my top 25 players in the league, and he certainly had no argument at all until this year despite being a dynamic scorer because he lacks in other areas. The most impactful players routinely are those who can score and create for others on an elite level. If you can only have one playmaking tends to be more valuable than individual scoring. Chris Paul on the Thunder/Suns is an example of that. Elite playmaking makes everyone else better. Cade has shown a lot of flashes that he can be that guy when the opportunity is presented.

I just think his shooting was more of a flash in the pan rather than reflective of his actual ability to consistently hit 3's. LaMelo isn't a great scorer either and Luka is a once in a generation type of talent. Luka is averaging close to a triple double and like 30 ppg in spite of being a pretty average 3 point shooter. I think his career path will be closer to Ben Simmons (worse defender/better shooter) than Luka's. I don't think he'll be a bust but I also don't think he's a transcendent talent that's going to be a #1 option on a championship team like he has been hyped up to be. 

Chris Paul has never won a championship and the only time he got close to one was when he had an MVP wing on his team in Harden. Even now the Suns are playing really well but they too also have a very good wing scorer in Devin Booker. Ben Simmons is another example, by himself he's not that impactful. And even playing alongside an MVP level big and two other All-Stars he couldn't get to the conference finals. 

If you look back at the last 20 NBA championship teams basically every single one of them outside of a few (Spurs pre Kawhi, Warriors pre KD, Pistons, Mavericks) had a dynamic, superstar wing at the 2 or 3. The only exceptions recently were the Warriors who have Steph Curry, a HOF and probably the greatest shooter of all time, and they beat a hobbled Cavaliers team without Kyrie or Love. And Dallas who had Dirk, Kidd, and beat the Heatles in their first year together. 

[NYRaider]

When the playoffs come give me the guy that can take over a game in isolation situations during clutch time over a guy that's getting clamped up by Liberty and Oregon State. 

[beekay414]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

When the playoffs come give me the guy that can take over a game in isolation situations during clutch time over a guy that's getting clamped up by Liberty and Oregon State. 

Except Cunningham literally lead the nation in clutch points, so this makes no sense. You're taking the sample size, that's smaller, to fit your narrative.

[NYRaider]

Just now, beekay414 said:

Except Cunningham literally lead the nation in clutch points, so this makes no sense. You're taking the sample size, that's smaller, to fit your narrative.

All it takes to lock down Cade Cunningham. 

You hated on RJ Barrett for inefficiency when he was literally more efficient in every metric than Cade other than 3 point shooting. 

[Mox]

3 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I just think his shooting was more of a flash in the pan rather than reflective of his actual ability to consistently hit 3's. LaMelo isn't a great scorer either and Luka is a once in a generation type of talent. Luka is averaging close to a triple double and like 30 ppg in spite of being a pretty average 3 point shooter. I think his career path will be closer to Ben Simmons (worse defender/better shooter) than Luka's. I don't think he'll be a bust but I also don't think he's a transcendent talent that's going to be a #1 option on a championship team like he has been hyped up to be. 

Chris Paul has never won a championship and the only time he got close to one was when he had an MVP wing on his team in Harden. Even now the Suns are playing really well but they too also have a very good wing scorer in Devin Booker. Ben Simmons is another example, by himself he's not that impactful. And even playing alongside an MVP level big and two other All-Stars he couldn't get to the conference finals. 

If you look back at the last 20 NBA championship teams basically every single one of them outside of a few (Spurs pre Kawhi, Warriors pre KD, Pistons, Mavericks) had a dynamic, superstar wing at the 2 or 3. The only exceptions recently were the Warriors who have Steph Curry, a HOF and probably the greatest shooter of all time, and they beat a hobbled Cavaliers team without Kyrie or Love. And Dallas who had Dirk, Kidd, and beat the Heatles in their first year together. 

LaMelo is a rookie averaging 16-6-6 on 45-38-79 as a rookie and didn't show as much ability to score last year as Cade did this year. More importantly, he's impactful and made the Hornets a better team. If Cade is between Ball and Doncic he's going to be really good. There are only like 5 or 6 legitimate #1's in the NBA so if he's not that who cares?

Chris Paul makes everyone around him significantly better. Look at how teams play with and without him. He's not the elite scorer (and honestly disappointing in the postseason a lot of times) but his impact on the game is undeniable. The last three years are very clear evidence of this. The caliber of team either plummets or skyrockets when CP3 isn't there vs. when he is. Devin Booker hasn't done anything in his entire career until CP3 showed up. Ben Simmons is more impactful than say...Zach Lavine.

The term superstar wing doesn't make what I said incorrect. LeBron is a superstar wing who provides elite playmaking. The only superstar wing to win a title as the guy in that span without great playmaking is Kawhi, who beat half a Warriors team. 

 

[beekay414]

Just now, NYRaider said:

You hated on RJ Barrett for inefficiency when he was literally more efficient in every metric than Cade other than 3 point shooting. 

RJ Barrett is a completely different type of player than Cade Cunningham so that comparison holds zero weight.