Steeler game moved to Monday 12/7.

[turtle28]

Should’ve traded him for a mid round pick at the trade deadline. One of the Super Bowl contenders like the Chiefs, Seahawks, Rams or Ravens could definitely use him as a starter. 

[turtle28]

 

[turtle28]

 

[4209]

Just watched the Steeler game again. Interesting we ended the first half 14 to 3. Like the way our team made some half time adjustments. Steelers paid close attention to McLaurin but in the second half Sims, Thomas and Mckissic made huge contributions. Defensively we really shutdown their passing attack. Just wish we can improve a little better defensively on third downs. Like the G man we kinda look like a playoff team fellas.

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, 4209 said:

Just watched the Steeler game again. Interesting we ended the first half 14 to 3. Like the way our team made some half time adjustments. Steelers paid close attention to McLaurin but in the second half Sims, Thomas and Mckissic made huge contributions. Defensively we really shutdown their passing attack. Just wish we can improve a little better defensively on third downs. Like the G man we kinda look like a playoff team fellas.

Big Ben gave our D big props, especially our young DL. JJ Watt gave our offense a lot of props especially the adjustments that were made for the second half. That’s high praise from a Hall of Fame QB and an All-Pro OLB maybe DPOY candidate.

[Thaiphoon]

On 12/8/2020 at 12:29 PM, turtle28 said:

So, if a player is selected with a pick and that pick works out great you consider that “costing us a pick?”

The term costing us a pick to me means a pick you lost. We didn’t lose two picks when we traded up for Sweat. We used one pick on Sweat and lost one pick in the trade up.

His own selection is not “losing a pick to me,” that pick benefited us, it wasn’t lost or given away in the trade. 

A car is priced at $10k and you pay $10k. What did that car cost?

$10k

Now let's say that you traded a car in and they valued it at $2k and you paid $8k in cash.

That car cost you a car and $8k cash.

A draft pick is obtained by giving up a 1st and a 2nd to get a 1st. The 1sts don't cancel each other out. We still used two picks on Sweat. Not one. 

Therefore the cost of the Sweat pick is a 1st and a 2nd. 

[Thaiphoon]

On 12/8/2020 at 12:36 PM, offbyone said:

Although I would call that a 1st and a 3rd because the value of a draft pick from the following year is essentially a round less than the current year.

You are correct sir. My point is that we still needed two picks to be able to draft Sweat. 

[Thaiphoon]

On 12/8/2020 at 12:34 PM, turtle28 said:

Do you mean their fans? I guess their fans do and they have reason bc the team is good, it was undefeated and most pundits and others acted like them being undefeated was bc of a weak schedule or somehow they lucked themselves into 11-0 which is ridiculous.

The Steelers this year have been as disrespected by the media as much as the 1991 Redskins were and still are in a lot of ways as a lot of people don’t consider that 1991 teams as one of the best teams of all time which you and I both know is a joke.

I don’t see the Steelers players or Tomlin talking a lot of crap though. 

Yes, their fans. We don't interact with the players and coaches much in this league Turtle. Most of our reactions are going to be towards another team's fanbase and how they act. 

And yes, it was a weak schedule. And they did get some lucky breaks from refs in some games that bailed them out. And had close calls in games like Dallas, etc...

The playoff teams who have had a tough schedule? Bills and Bucs. These rest (as should be expected of playoff teams) have SoS under .500.

I disagree about 1991. It wasn't so much the disrespect to the 1991 team as it was the fawning over the Bills' roster every week. We beat a lot of pretty good teams that year. I'm only finding two wins for the Steelers right now that I would call to be against "good teams" (2nd Baltimore game doesn't count when they were essentially playing PS guys). The rest of their schedule has been pretty weak.

[Thaiphoon]

On 12/9/2020 at 7:48 PM, turtle28 said:

@Thaiphoon

That's my man!!

Tackles too!

[e16bball]

21 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

A car is priced at $10k and you pay $10k. What did that car cost?

$10k

Now let's say that you traded a car in and they valued it at $2k and you paid $8k in cash.

That car cost you a car and $8k cash.

A draft pick is obtained by giving up a 1st and a 2nd to get a 1st. The 1sts don't cancel each other out. We still used two picks on Sweat. Not one. 

Therefore the cost of the Sweat pick is a 1st and a 2nd. 

I don’t understand this explanation. 

We used the 26th pick to take Sweat. To acquire pick #26, we gave up (from our own resources) our 2nd rounder (pick #46) and a future 2nd round pick.

You can frame it as using a 1st on Sweat (the actual asset we used to draft him) or using two 2nds (the price we paid from our own resources to acquire the asset used to draft him), but I’m not sure how you get to a 1st and a 2nd. 

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, e16bball said:

I don’t understand this explanation. 

We used the 26th pick to take Sweat. To acquire pick #26, we gave up (from our own resources) our 2nd rounder (pick #46) and a future 2nd round pick.

You can frame it as using a 1st on Sweat (the actual asset we used to draft him) or using two 2nds (the price we paid from our own resources to acquire the asset used to draft him), but I’m not sure how you get to a 1st and a 2nd. 

Thai has been making this argument since the RG3 trade back then saying we gave up 3 firsts & a 2nd to get RG3 and I’m with you, I just don’t see it that way bc we use the draft pick we acquire back on the player. So, we lost/gave up in the RG3 trade the 2012 second, 2013 first & 2014 first.

In the Sweat trade we gave up the 2019 second & 2020 second and we got back a 2019 first which we used on Sweat. That’s a net of one lost draft pick. We gained 1 lost 2. Last time I checked 2-1= 1.

[Thaiphoon]

19 hours ago, e16bball said:

I don’t understand this explanation. 

We used the 26th pick to take Sweat. To acquire pick #26, we gave up (from our own resources) our 2nd rounder (pick #46) and a future 2nd round pick.

You can frame it as using a 1st on Sweat (the actual asset we used to draft him) or using two 2nds (the price we paid from our own resources to acquire the asset used to draft him), but I’m not sure how you get to a 1st and a 2nd. 

Frame it how you want. 2x2nds is fine. I'm not married to it.

We used two picks on him. Not one. Which is the point I'm trying to get across.

People like to "cancel out" picks in a trade deal (see Turtle's "net" explanation above) instead of the actual number of picks used to obtain him. It's that lunacy I'm attempting to address. Sweat didnt "cost" us one pick. He cost us two. I'm okay with saying he cost us 2x2nds if that is more understandable. I'm not okay with people saying he only "cost us one pick". Because that's not reality

[Woz]

On 12/9/2020 at 10:14 AM, turtle28 said:

Based on what? Some kind of metric that doesn’t even matter? Peoples opinions? I mean seriously. That kind of commentary has never ever been talked about in NFL history, suggesting that any 11-0 is weaker than the others. There’s no way to prove or disprove that because the teams will never play, but given how great the Steelers D was before the injuries started hitting them and how efficient their passing game before the last few games they’d be right there with any other 11-0 team. You don’t go 11-0 as a fluke, it’s the NFL every game is a tough game. It’s just the dumbest opinion I’ve ever heard and it has no bases that can be proven.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/steelers-undefeated-heres-a-look-at-the-other-12-teams-that-started-11-0-in-super-bowl-era/

No, I have no idea why they included the '75 Vikings who lost in week 11 to Washington and thus started only 10-0. If I had to guess, they had written this for 10-0 teams and changed it to 11-0 because of the late Ravens-Steelers game but missed a team in their scrub. In any event, I will only consider the teams that went 11-0.

So, how about we first use arguably the simple most important metric: scoring, both first and against? Does that metric matter? But that doesn't take into account differences in eras, so let's take a look at pro-football-reference.com's SRS values as well to show how the teams were doing to their relative timeperiod (I would include DVOA, but they don't go that far back).

 

		Raw Scoring						Pro Football Reference's Simple Rating System (SRS)
		Points For		Points Against		Avg Win Margin		Margin of Victory (MoV)		Strength of Schedule (SoS)		Overall SRS		Offensive SRS		Defensive SRS
Year	Team	Value	Rank	Value	Rank	Value	Rank	Value	Rank	Value	Rank	Value	Rank	Value	Rank	Value	Rank
1969	Los Angeles Rams	300	12	182	5	10.73	12	5.5	12	1.6	1	7.1	11	3.2	11	3.9	6
1972	Miami Dolphins	309	10	137	2	15.64	7	15.3	4	-4.3	12	11.0	5	4.5	9	6.5	2
1984	Miami Dolphins	360	6	164	4	17.82	4	13.4	5	-2.9	9	10.6	7	9.1	6	1.5	8
1985	Chicago Bears	323	8	127	1	17.82	3	16.1	3	-0.2	5	15.9	3	6.5	7	9.4	1
1991	Washington Redskins	361	5	139	3	20.18	2	16.3	2	0.3	3	16.6	2	11.7	2	4.9	4
1998	Denver Broncos	370	4	190	9	16.36	6	12.0	7	-3.1	10	8.9	8	9.5	5	-0.6	12
2007	New England Patriots	442	1	185	7	23.36	1	19.7	1	0.4	2	20.1	1	15.9	1	4.2	5
2009	Indianapolis Colts	304	11	184	6	10.91	11	6.8	11	-0.9	6	5.9	12	4.4	10	1.5	9
2009	New Orleans Saints	407	2	221	11	16.91	5	10.6	9	0.2	4	10.8	6	11.2	4	-0.5	11
2011	Green Bay Packers	382	3	227	12	14.09	8	12.6	6	-1.2	7	11.4	4	11.5	3	-0.1	10
2015	Carolina Panthers	332	7	205	10	11.55	10	12.0	8	-3.9	11	8.1	10	6.0	8	2.1	7
2020	Pittsburgh Steelers	317	9	188	8	11.73	9	10.3	10	-2.2	8	8.1	9	2.5	12	5.6	3

 

With the exclusion of the DSRS, the 2020 Pittsburgh Steelers were in the bottom third of every category. If you want to argue that the 2015 Panthers were weaker, I'll entertain the notion. However, part of my thoughts on why I look down on Pittsburgh was the number of times they needed by a team to come from behind on or a last second play to win: Houston in week 3, Tennessee in week 7, Baltimore in week 8, and Dallas in week 9. At least with the Titans they were 5-0 at the time, and the Ravens are a divisional rival. But the Texans and Cowboys (especially without Dak)?

To be honest, this is probably the best for the Steelers. They no longer have the pressure to go undefeated, so they can rest guys down the stretch like Ben.

[Woz]

On 12/9/2020 at 10:59 AM, turtle28 said:

Honestly, Cam Sims has already exceeded my expectations on what he would ever be. As you may remember, I never bought the training camp and preseason hype so anything we get out of him beyond what he already is is gravy to me.

I did! And I'm glad to see it bearing out (I ate some crow when he didn't pan out).

On 12/9/2020 at 10:59 AM, turtle28 said:

I mean I have no clue if Cam Sims will remain this consistent or our #2 starter next year but we he’s been solid. Over his last 4 games/the ones he’s started he’s averaged:

4 recs & 69 yards a game w/ a TD 

That’s what you’d want/need out of a #2 WR. Even if he just averages 3 recs a game next year if he’s the #2 WR that gets him around 50 recs & 4 TDs and I’m sure given his targets being downfield a lot and his ability to get yac he’d average 13 to 15 ypc. So, that’s 650 yards too. 

Yes. They don't necessarily need a JuJu or another top WR opposite McLaurin. Realistically, they need an Alvin Harper equivalent.

[turtle28]

On 12/11/2020 at 8:59 PM, Thaiphoon said:

Yes, their fans. We don't interact with the players and coaches much in this league Turtle. Most of our reactions are going to be towards another team's fanbase and how they act. 

And yes, it was a weak schedule. And they did get some lucky breaks from refs in some games that bailed them out. And had close calls in games like Dallas, etc...

The playoff teams who have had a tough schedule? Bills and Bucs. These rest (as should be expected of playoff teams) have SoS under .500.

I disagree about 1991. It wasn't so much the disrespect to the 1991 team as it was the fawning over the Bills' roster every week. We beat a lot of pretty good teams that year. I'm only finding two wins for the Steelers right now that I would call to be against "good teams" (2nd Baltimore game doesn't count when they were essentially playing PS guys). The rest of their schedule has been pretty weak.

Well I guess some of their fans - just like every team's fans - can be obnoxious. I would just say though if Washington was 11-0 right now, I'd be pretty po'd as a fan if all I heard every day for months was that we were the worst 11-0 team in NFL history etc, etc. My reaction would be the same as it is with regards to the Steelers. If Washington were 11-0, I'd say we may play in the weakest division in football and may have played mostly a week schedule but 11-0 is 11-0 and it's still the NFL and any team can beat any other team every time they go out because the competition is that good.

11-0 was 11-0 for the Steelers, regardless of schedule it's still something that most teams never do. I mean it is the NFL after all and any given Sunday or Monday - In Washington's/our case - any team can be beaten. I do agree that the Steelers have issues like for example, they can't run the ball very well, their receivers - Ebron included - drop too many catchable passes and Big Ben is not as accurate 20 plus yards downfield as he used to be probably because of his elbow surgery.

I would not consider them a great team but again 11-0 is 11-0, I don't know how people are just going to disrespect the accomplishment. I think the Steelers have a major major problem developing, their LB corps has been ravished by injuries the last three games. Their D & Ben's efficient passing game was why they were 11-0, now they are missing Dupree, both of their starting ILBs - Williams & Bush - and Spolane got hurt vs us. Last week they started or at least played most of the game with a back up safety at WILB and their MLB was Avery Williamson who they just traded for a month ago from the Jets. Their injuries to their LB corps will probably be their downfall on this season, unless Williams & Spolane return, but losing Dupree was huge. I'm not even sure they win a playoff game tbh because they'll be playing the Divisional round against a pretty good team whoever it is.

As for the 91 Redskins. For me, I don't remember much about the commentary that went on because I was only 11 but I am just saying historically a lot of people look at the Redskins 1991 team as not being one of the best of all time just because we didn't have a franchise QB. I 100% agree with you that back then everyone like Chris Berman is a perfect example, fawned over the Bills every week. I just don't remember a lot of people believing much in the Redskins that year. It seemed like every week we were having to prove to people that we were a great team.