The Carr dilemma in 2021

[BackinBlack]

1 hour ago, bucksavage1 said:

So I'll keep this simple..What teams the NFL has kept a starting QB around that has had more than 5 losing seasons? Lions and Raiders. 

The saints, some guy named Drew Brees?
thank you for keeping it simple. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by BackinBlack

[bucksavage1]

44 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

The saints, some guy named Drew Brees?
thank you for keeping it simple. 

Drew Brees...super bowl winning MVP QB. Seriously? When you win a ring...you get a pass for a few years. Even then, The saints were ready to draft Mahomes until KC jumped in front of them

[BackinBlack]

1 hour ago, bucksavage1 said:

Drew Brees...super bowl winning MVP QB. Seriously? When you win a ring...you get a pass for a few years. Even then, The saints were ready to draft Mahomes until KC jumped in front of them

lol you asked me what team has ever kept a qb with 5 losing seasons.
then tried to paint the picture that it was only the lions and the raiders.

Dont get mad at me that you asked a question that didnt give you the answer you wanted lol

Edited January 13, 2021 by BackinBlack

[bucksavage1]

21 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

lol you asked me what team has ever kept a qb with 5 losing seasons.
then tried to paint the picture that it was only the lions and the raiders.

Dont get mad at me that you asked a question that didnt give you the answer you wanted lol

Sorry bro. Ive been bombarded

[NCOUGHMAN]

3 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

The saints, some guy named Drew Brees?
thank you for keeping it simple. 

Crazy the worst year drew ever had was 7-9 which happened 5 times in 15 years with no and 8-8 once. Other than that all winning seasons. His lowest td total in a losing season is 28 highest being 43 tds. If carr tossing tds like that we wouldn’t even have threads like this. If Carr’s  lowest record was 7-9 again we wouldn’t even have threads like this.

[MrOaktown_56]

49 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Crazy the worst year drew ever had was 7-9 which happened 5 times in 15 years with no and 8-8 once. Other than that all winning seasons. His lowest td total in a losing season is 28 highest being 43 tds. If carr tossing tds like that we wouldn’t even have threads like this. If Carr’s  lowest record was 7-9 again we wouldn’t even have threads like this.

I'm looking at team trajectory. The offense has steadily improved in 3 years with Gruden. Carr has steadily improved with Gruden. The defense has not. Carr could be on the verge of another career year, better than this year. The offense was 7th in scoring every time you touched the ball. 

Upgrading Carr would be great, considering he's already good. But upgrading the defense is the easiest way to get this team into postseason with a shot to win it all. We can already beat the big boys. We did it this year. We just need more talent and coaching on defense (and maybe the OL to get healthy to spring Jacobs).

[NCOUGHMAN]

48 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I'm looking at team trajectory. The offense has steadily improved in 3 years with Gruden. Carr has steadily improved with Gruden. The defense has not. Carr could be on the verge of another career year, better than this year. The offense was 7th in scoring every time you touched the ball. 

Upgrading Carr would be great, considering he's already good. But upgrading the defense is the easiest way to get this team into postseason with a shot to win it all. We can already beat the big boys. We did it this year. We just need more talent and coaching on defense (and maybe the OL to get healthy to spring Jacobs).

Will a top 10 defense guarantee carr throw 34 tds in a yr? That’s what we need. Explain why 6 games in a row (minus the mm game) offense  couldn’t do better than a 3 n out and what bad field position it put the defense in

[MrOaktown_56]

20 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Will a top 10 defense guarantee carr throw 34 tds in a yr? That’s what we need. Explain why 6 games in a row (minus the mm game) offense couldn’t do better than a 3 n out and what bad field position it put the defense in

He had 30 this year if you count rushing. A decent amount more than that dropped. You're a smart guy you know that as well as I do. But true it wasn't 34.

In the last 6 games we (the offense, not Carr) put up: 32, 25 (if Gru lets jacobs walk it it's 29), 27, 31, and 6. That's still nearly 30 points a game, except for atlanta, which was an unmitigated disaster and the whole team (carr included absolutely) played like ****.

Atl was an embarrassment. The other weeks were still fine. All offenses 3 and out sometimes. We were still one of the best on 3rd down at 6th in the league. It was trash the last 3 weeks and we were STILL scoring points because of explosive plays.

If you want, I have gamepass. I will go back and watch all the 3rd down/RZ plays again. My first instinct is to blame Gruden and Carr's lack of mobility after injury. I can go look for more reasons why, Carr potentially among them. 

I don't get the 34 td thing though. Is that what Watson threw this year? 

[Jerry]

17 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

Seems like a lot of Raiders fan are happy with average results instead of improving the team at all costs or trying something different. 

 We will continue to be Mediocre middle of the pack team with Carr as QB. The illusion that we are all of sudden gonna become an elite team under him won't happen. 

Have you even addressed the fact that our defense is horrible?  Do you really not think if we had a top 10 defense we wouldn't be in the playoffs right now?  You really think there are 10-15 QBs better than DC that could win with a team that gave up 470 points in a season and was one of 2-3 teams to ever do that and still not have a losing record?  Are you really ignoring the fact that our offense put up the most points in almost 20 years?  Our offense literally put up more points than what we put up in 2016 (12-4 season btw)?  Like are you really ignoring all of this?  I just want to know if you can answer questions or if all you can do is talk about DC being the problem.  Sure he fumbled 10 times this season, but he also took us to 8-8 with a historically bad defense.  If you want to point to any problem on offense, like a real problem, point to the run game and how Josh Jacobs had a sophomore slump in December.  The OL couldn't run block at all.  Talk about that.  That problem makes sense.  Like others have said, your responses lack effort.

17 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Agreed. It's comparable to Jimmy G in San Francisco or Alex Smith in Kansas City. If we build an elite defense and have the right weapons around him he can definitely win a lot of games for us, but he's not the type of player that can elevate a franchise as he has proven over his 7 year career. But in fairness to him there are very few guys that can elevate a franchise. 

We had a historically bad defense.  If we even had a middle of the pack defense we would probably be in the playoffs right now.  You're talking about elevating a franchise and how very few QBs can do that and you're absolutely right.  Even Drew Brees when he was putting up 5,000 yards and over 30 TDs a season had losing records.  There are so many QBs that have had stellar seasons (D. Watson literally this year) and still had losing records.  In all honesty if D. Watson can have the season he had and still have a 4-12 record, I bet a pretty penny if you put Mahomes/R. Wilson/A. Rodgers on the Jets this season they would probably have still had a losing record as well.  

We need a defense.  I hope Bradley is the guy to get us back on track.

[bucksavage1]

1 minute ago, Jerry said:

Have you even addressed the fact that our defense is horrible?  Do you really not think if we had a top 10 defense we wouldn't be in the playoffs right now?  You really think there are 10-15 QBs better than DC that could win with a team that gave up 470 points in a season and was one of 2-3 teams to ever do that and still not have a losing record?  Are you really ignoring the fact that our offense put up the most points in almost 20 years?  Our offense literally put up more points than what we put up in 2016 (12-4 season btw)?  Like are you really ignoring all of this?  I just want to know if you can answer questions or if all you can do is talk about DC being the problem.  Sure he fumbled 10 times this season, but he also took us to 8-8 with a historically bad defense.  If you want to point to any problem on offense, like a real problem, point to the run game and how Josh Jacobs had a sophomore slump in December.  The OL couldn't run block at all.  Talk about that.  That problem makes sense.  Like others have said, your responses lack effort.

We had a historically bad defense.  If we even had a middle of the pack defense we would probably be in the playoffs right now.  You're talking about elevating a franchise and how very few QBs can do that and you're absolutely right.  Even Drew Brees when he was putting up 5,000 yards and over 30 TDs a season had losing records.  There are so many QBs that have had stellar seasons (D. Watson literally this year) and still had losing records.  In all honesty if D. Watson can have the season he had and still have a 4-12 record, I bet a pretty penny if you put Mahomes/R. Wilson/A. Rodgers on the Jets this season they would probably have still had a losing record as well.  

We need a defense.  I hope Bradley is the guy to get us back on track.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/09/sports/nfl-scoring.html

 

Scoring is up across the entire league.  So this historical bad defense everyone is referring to as evidence happened during the highest scoring season in NFL history

[Jerry]

13 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

The saints, some guy named Drew Brees?
thank you for keeping it simple. 

A. Rodgers had back to back losing seasons in 2017 and 2018.  Surprised they didn't try to get rid of him then.  Lol...

[Jerry]

Just now, bucksavage1 said:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/09/sports/nfl-scoring.html

 

Scoring is up across the entire league.  So this historical bad defense everyone is referring to as evidence happened during the highest scoring season in NFL history

You're right.  Also, There were teams who held other team's offenses to roughly 21-22 points a game.  We were giving up around 29 points per game.  So there were still good defenses, and ours was definitely not one of them.

[Jerry]

8 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Will a top 10 defense guarantee carr throw 34 tds in a yr? That’s what we need. Explain why 6 games in a row (minus the mm game) offense  couldn’t do better than a 3 n out and what bad field position it put the defense in

We literally were like top 3 in 3rd down conversion.  I don't even understand how 3rd down conversions are being considered a problem.  We were literally one of the best teams to convert in the entire NFL.

[BackinBlack]

10 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Crazy the worst year drew ever had was 7-9 which happened 5 times in 15 years with no and 8-8 once. Other than that all winning seasons. His lowest td total in a losing season is 28 highest being 43 tds. If carr tossing tds like that we wouldn’t even have threads like this. If Carr’s  lowest record was 7-9 again we wouldn’t even have threads like this.

fair enough, and in no way am I saying Derek Carr = Drew Brees. 
but I do think its at least important to point out that, 2018 our roster was legit awful Gruden traded away that season to build a team he wanted. and then 2014 was Carrs rookie Season, and another terrible roster. we went 3-13 and 4-12 those years. 
other years we are right at 7-9 (one year carr missed a game and was 6-9)

Obviously people are free to judge how they want. But Rookie season wiht our roster shouldnt be seen as an excuse, it legit was a terrible team. 
and 2018, I guess you can call it an excuse. But that was another terrible roster. 

 

[NCOUGHMAN]

7 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

He had 30 this year if you count rushing. A decent amount more than that dropped. You're a smart guy you know that as well as I do. But true it wasn't 34.

In the last 6 games we (the offense, not Carr) put up: 32, 25 (if Gru lets jacobs walk it it's 29), 27, 31, and 6. That's still nearly 30 points a game, except for atlanta, which was an unmitigated disaster and the whole team (carr included absolutely) played like ****.

Atl was an embarrassment. The other weeks were still fine. All offenses 3 and out sometimes. We were still one of the best on 3rd down at 6th in the league. It was trash the last 3 weeks and we were STILL scoring points because of explosive plays.

If you want, I have gamepass. I will go back and watch all the 3rd down/RZ plays again. My first instinct is to blame Gruden and Carr's lack of mobility after injury. I can go look for more reasons why, Carr potentially among them. 

I don't get the 34 td thing though. Is that what Watson threw this year? 

The difference between carr and other top qbs imo has always been tds and now we have Herbert (if you wanna do total td fine) responsible for 36 tds and mahomie for 40. For us to even get out of the afc west we need to score more. A top defense will give carr more chances but with the law of averages you have to expect more chances to not only potentially lead to more tds but also more fgs or t/o’s. Top 10 defense won’t fix Carr’s fumbling problems or December meltdowns imo.