The Carr dilemma in 2021

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, CaribouLou said:

you mean when ferrell got 2 strip sacks against the jets? or when the d was basically shut down on the chiefs in the 2nd half opposed from a garbage late score? Week 8 against the browns holding them to 6? Broncos to 12? Look at our wins, our d stepped up at times, and Carr had help in the wins we did have. stop acting like our d didn't make a play last year.  

 

 

Crazy how our scoring defense still ranked 29th in the NFL.  Just terrible.

[drfrey13]

24 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

We scored 40. At what point does the offense start getting credit?

Nobody said the offense did nothing.  Some posters said the defense did nothing.

[Geezy]

13 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Crazy how our scoring defense still ranked 29th in the NFL.  Just terrible.

man, id hate to see what this forum would be like if the offense were to rank 29th. 

[drfrey13]

23 minutes ago, Geezy said:

Yea, Gruden built the offense up first, hes an offensive minded HC. But, Littleton, Joyner, Nassib, Kwit, along withhigh picks in Ferrell, Abram, Arnette and Mullen make up a lot of resources allocated to that side of the ball. Thats 8 premium assets weve spent in just the last two years for a bottom 3 defense. 

I have said repeatedly that Guenther was the #1 problem and we fixed that.  I also said that when we have dedicated assets to the defensive side of the ball they have screwed up.  Saying we signed Nassib to help the defense is like saying we signed Mariota to help Carr.  Just an overpaid backup.  I never said we do not dedicate assets to the defense either.  I said we give the offence 2/3s of the assets. That is the reason why we have just as must cap dedicated to Carr and the o-line as we do the entire defense.  Like Palooka has said Carr is not the problem but he is also not the solution.  We do not hate Carr or think that we can grab any QB of the street and be a better team.  We just think that Carr limits our success to be a contender on a regular basis.  Lets really dedicate assets to fixing the defense and see what Carr has next year.  If he proves to be a middle of the road QB I think that we need to look elsewhere.  The most extreme idea around here is to trade Carr and picks for Watson.  With the way our team drafts that might be a good idea but if we could find talent then the picks and Carr might be a better choice.  No way of knowing for sure.

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, bucksavage1 said:

The only QB or player who has reached the Super bowl 10 times now has taken a team who was a perennial loser for the last 17 years to the super bowl. Recognize greatness when you see it

DC on the other hand has played losing football for the majority of his career. Oh that right it was the defense why he led the league in Sack Fumbles or why we were near the bottom of the league in Redzone TDs. Are you even watching the games?

So its DCs fault that they were 29th in scoring?  It's his fault we lost against KC in the second game because Abram blew coverage?  Or Arnette giving up that pass at the end of the game against Miami that lost us that one?  It is DC's fault that we couldn't stop the Patriots' running game?  It is DC's fault we gave up over 470 points?  Which has only happened like 20 times in the history of the NFL?  

Go hop on the Bucs bandwagon bro, you clearly don't want to be here.  All you do is crap on our offense and HC and talk about our losing organization of the past 20 years with absolutely no optimism whatsoever.  

Same old garbage coming from your post over and over again about whether or not other fans watch the games.  We all clearly watch them, you just can't provide any real intelligent argument that we should replace DC other than his fumbles, which still doesn't take away the fact that we had the #10 scoring offense in the NFL with essentially half of our starting offense in either their first or second year with the Raiders.

[drfrey13]

30 minutes ago, Geezy said:

at least its not half the forum anymore, its just 4 or 5 of you stubborn mfers left, next year we can move on to something different i hope lmaoooo

How many posters do we have arguing about Carr?  8-10?  You are right the percentage is so much lower now that there is only 4-5 of us?

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

You are right the defense did nothing that game.  Just held the Chiefs to 40 yards in the 2nd half before they scored a garbage time TD when we had the game locked up.  But Carr carried the team that game.  Oh I forgot to mention that 7 of KC's 1st half points they had to drive 28 yards after a Carr Int.  So the defense gave up a total of 17 relevant points that game.  But he did it with no defense.  You should probably go back and watch that game.

Thanks they really forgot about all that

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 hours ago, CaribouLou said:

you mean when ferrell got 2 strip sacks against the jets? or when the d was basically shut down on the chiefs in the 2nd half opposed from a garbage late score? Week 8 against the browns holding them to 6? Broncos to 12? Look at our wins, our d stepped up at times, and Carr had help in the wins we did have. stop acting like our d didn't make a play last year.  

 

 

Word thought it was just me that saw that

[Jerry]

 

27 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Nobody said the offense did nothing.  Some posters said the defense did nothing.

Well giving up 32 isn't exactly stellar.

25 minutes ago, Geezy said:

man, id hate to see what this forum would be like if the offense were to rank 29th. 

Right!  Crazy thing is some fans want to move on from DC and are okay with us being 4-12 for the next 5 years than just sticking with DC.

15 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I have said repeatedly that Guenther was the #1 problem and we fixed that.  I also said that when we have dedicated assets to the defensive side of the ball they have screwed up.  Saying we signed Nassib to help the defense is like saying we signed Mariota to help Carr.  Just an overpaid backup.  I never said we do not dedicate assets to the defense either.  I said we give the offence 2/3s of the assets. That is the reason why we have just as must cap dedicated to Carr and the o-line as we do the entire defense.  Like Palooka has said Carr is not the problem but he is also not the solution.  We do not hate Carr or think that we can grab any QB of the street and be a better team.  We just think that Carr limits our success to be a contender on a regular basis.  Lets really dedicate assets to fixing the defense and see what Carr has next year.  If he proves to be a middle of the road QB I think that we need to look elsewhere.  The most extreme idea around here is to trade Carr and picks for Watson.  With the way our team drafts that might be a good idea but if we could find talent then the picks and Carr might be a better choice.  No way of knowing for sure.

What about the fact that our defense has never ranked in the top 20 except for 1 year and we went 12-4?  I mean shouldn't that essentially validate that he can take us to the playoffs if we have a decent defense?

I just think us having a terrible defense every single year is what limits our success to being a contender on a regular basis.

12 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

How many posters do we have arguing about Carr?  8-10?  You are right the percentage is so much lower now that there is only 4-5 of us?

Yeah, about that.  I honestly didn't think bringing this back up was going to go this far but going 8-8 really brought out the fans that want DC gone.  Back when we were 6-3 a lot of fans that wanted to move on from DC were quiet.  If only we went 11-5 lol.

5 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Thanks they really forgot about all that

Well we didn't forget about the fact that they gave up over 470 points and ranked 29th in scoring.

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

 

Well giving up 32 isn't exactly stellar.

Right!  Crazy thing is some fans want to move on from DC and are okay with us being 4-12 for the next 5 years than just sticking with DC.

What about the fact that our defense has never ranked in the top 20 except for 1 year and we went 12-4?  I mean shouldn't that essentially validate that he can take us to the playoffs if we have a decent defense?

I just think us having a terrible defense every single year is what limits our success to being a contender on a regular basis.

Yeah, about that.  I honestly didn't think bringing this back up was going to go this far but going 8-8 really brought out the fans that want DC gone.  Back when we were 6-3 a lot of fans that wanted to move on from DC were quiet.  If only we went 11-5 lol.

Well we didn't forget about the fact that they gave up over 470 points and ranked 29th in scoring.

2nd in salary in the nfl for offense what did you expect? 
 

defense on the other hand...yea you get what you pay for

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

 

Well giving up 32 isn't exactly stellar.

Right!  Crazy thing is some fans want to move on from DC and are okay with us being 4-12 for the next 5 years than just sticking with DC.

What about the fact that our defense has never ranked in the top 20 except for 1 year and we went 12-4?  I mean shouldn't that essentially validate that he can take us to the playoffs if we have a decent defense?

I just think us having a terrible defense every single year is what limits our success to being a contender on a regular basis.

Yeah, about that.  I honestly didn't think bringing this back up was going to go this far but going 8-8 really brought out the fans that want DC gone.  Back when we were 6-3 a lot of fans that wanted to move on from DC were quiet.  If only we went 11-5 lol.

Well we didn't forget about the fact that they gave up over 470 points and ranked 29th in scoring.

1) One TD was off of a Carr Int that gave them the ball on the 28 of the Raiders and the last score was in garbage time after we had it locked up.  Up to that point they held the Chiefs to 40 yards and zero points in the half.  I think that far exceeds what you expect from a bad defense.

2)I think Carr gives us the best shot to win in the short term but to be a top offense we might have to upgrade from Carr.  If and only if we hit on a rookie QB that would free up capital to improve the rest of the team.  Hitting on a rookie QB is really risky.  I think most that want to move on understand the risk and are just willing to take it.

3) 2016 we did not have a top 20 defense.  They were closer than we are now but they were just more aggressive and lucky.  The TO ratio played a big part in them allowing 24 points a game and 2020 defense given up 30 points a game.  A 27 TO differential would easily makeup that difference.  What many Are missing is that the defenses forced TOs did drop from 30 to 15 but the offensive giveaways went from 14 in 2016 to 26 this year.  Almost have of the issue this year was on the offense.

4) I agree and I would love to watch an aggressive dominant Raiders defense.

5) I can not speak for everyone but I know myself and a few others where giving Carr credit when he played well.

6)  Once again the defense needs improvement and Guenther's philosophy was not a good fit for or talent level.  Hopefully Bradley can change that and we can get some more talent on defense.

[Jerry]

27 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

2nd in salary in the nfl for offense what did you expect? 
 

defense on the other hand...yea you get what you pay for

Well we did pay roughly 31M to 3 players that didn't really contribute on offense this season (Williams, Brown, Inc).  But yeah I get it.  Hopefully we allocate that 31M to the defense.

We didn't get what we paid for though on defense.  Guenther made sure of that.

[jimkelly02]

I realize the cap spending this year was 61%offense to 38% defense (1% ST) ....

and obviously a 23% difference is a big deal.... we’re talking not just a 45M gap this year but also 50m last year and year before.  

....but you can’t not examine the impact of how we’ve used a plethora of draft capital, which carries cheap contracts. 

Look at the last 2 drafts and the draft trade board’s point system and we’ve spent 2459.1 points on offense versus 4217.5  pts on defense.  That’s 37% offense, 63% defense.  Essentially the defense has gotten an additional #4 pick in Ferrell and #40 pick in Mullen.  Ignore how they’ve played...What would it costs to fill a starting DE and CB spot?  15M for DE and 12M for CB = 27M ... times 2 years = 54M

yes the 45m last year and 95m the last 2 is a big difference but I see it more as a division of all team resources of:

56% offense vs 44% defense

And it’s a offensive driven league.... I’d guesstimate most of the teams spent assets very similarly. 
 

my point being the problem with the defense isn’t the fact they’ve been given enough assets to be successful but rather that the assets put into them, in typical Raider fashion, haven’t  given a good return on investment.

Any time you spend #4, #19, #27, #40 plus a 3rd and 2 4th (and one forth is a massive first year steal in Crosby) and you only get the production we have out of those guys..... your got gonna win.  
 

most teams could turn a defense entirely around from bottom barrel to average in 2 years with those resources.... let alone the money we’ve spent on FAs.

this isn’t a “you get what you pay for”’ situation at all!

it’s a where not getting what we paid for.... and oh yeah by the way we need to put a bit more into the D.

Edited January 30, 2021 by jimkelly02

[NCOUGHMAN]

42 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

I realize the cap spending this year was 61%offense to 38% defense (1% ST) ....

and obviously a 23% difference is a big deal.... we’re talking not just a 45M gap this year but also 50m last year and year before.  

....but you can’t not examine the impact of how we’ve used a plethora of draft capital, which carries cheap contracts. 

Look at the last 2 drafts and the draft trade board’s point system and we’ve spent 2459.1 points on offense versus 4217.5  pts on defense.  That’s 37% offense, 63% defense.  Essentially the defense has gotten an additional #4 pick in Ferrell and #40 pick in Mullen.  Ignore how they’ve played...What would it costs to fill a starting DE and CB spot?  15M for DE and 12M for CB = 27M ... times 2 years = 54M

yes the 45m last year and 95m the last 2 is a big difference but I see it more as a division of all team resources of:

56% offense vs 44% defense

And it’s a offensive driven league.... I’d guesstimate most of the teams spent assets very similarly. 
 

my point being the problem with the defense isn’t the fact they’ve been given enough assets to be successful but rather that the assets put into them, in typical Raider fashion, haven’t  given a good return on investment.

Any time you spend #4, #19, #27, #40 plus a 3rd and 2 4th (and one forth is a massive first year steal in Crosby) and you only get the production we have out of those guys..... your got gonna win.  
 

most teams could turn a defense entirely around from bottom barrel to average in 2 years with those resources.... let alone the money we’ve spent on FAs.

this isn’t a “you get what you pay for”’ situation at all!

it’s a where not getting what we paid for.... and oh yeah by the way we need to put a bit more into the D.

Guess who has the cheapest defense.... Tampa bay... drafting well does make a difference. Instead of getting serious about our let’s say 3t position we tried to go the cheap route and quess what happened got exactly what we paid for. 

[jimkelly02]

2 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Guess who has the cheapest defense.... Tampa bay... drafting well does make a difference. Instead of getting serious about our let’s say 3t position we tried to go the cheap route and quess what happened got exactly what we paid for. 

Yeah TB has drafted heavy on Defense the last 3 years.  Vita Vea and Devin White plus stocked up the secondary with 2nd and 3rd round picks: Carlton Davis, Jamal Dean, Sean Murphy-Bunting (plus MJ Stewart but he was a bust and is gone to Cle) at CB and Mike Edwards Antione Winfield plus 4th rounder Jordan Whitehead at S.  They spend under 9M on their secondary!  We pay more than that to Joyner Alone.

Instead of resigning Nassib for 9M+ annually they replaced him with a 4th rounder, Anthony Nelson.  Besides Shaq Barrett on the 15.8M, JPP making 12.8M, L.David 10.75M, Suh 8m, and Golston 5.5M the entire defense is draft picks and cheap veteran backups, none being over 1M. They don’t pay guys like Nassib 9m, Collins 6m, Heath 3.5m to be backups.  They spend 45M on the defense.