Will the Bengals coach get the ax?

[43M]

1 hour ago, Malfatron said:

Fire him and throw boatloads of money at a top tier coach and turn this franchise around

What top tier coach? Who is available that is CLEARLY an upgrade.

Beyond that, Mike Brown is cheap as hell. 

All coaching hires should get 3 years to improve things unless they are a special kind of bad.    Bengals are always playing hard under him.  Taylor took over a dysfunctional team and deals with a crappy owner.   I have no particular feelings for Taylor one way or another, but I seriously doubt they are going to hire a CLEAR upgrade if they do bounce him.

[Malfatron]

17 minutes ago, 43M said:

What top tier coach? Who is available that is CLEARLY an upgrade.

Maybe Mike Tomlin, who knows?

[diamondbull424]

37 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

I mean, you can shrug me off all you want. It doesn’t make your post anymore true. There is zero evidence Taylor has lost, or is in danger of losing, the locker room. The following quotes are absolute BS:

I shrug you off because you waited 2 weeks to respond to my original comment and so IMO, this was already a dead and forgotten topic that I care about far less than playoff scenarios and playoff football. But I’m also going to give you the respect of responding to your post. But your fortuitous response after the Bengals go on their first EVER win streak under Zac Taylor also does little to inspire much motivation in me to care about this discussion with you. That said.

Carlos Dunlap:
7 games with the Bengals- 4 QBHs, 2 PDs, 2 tkfl, 1 sk
7 games with the Seahawks- 11 QBHs, 1 PD, 6 TFL, 4.5 sks

Looks like he’s definitely performing harder for his new team. Whereas for the Bengals he looked about as productive as Geno Atkins looked before he shut it down. Dunlap wanted out of Cincy so bad that he was willing to restructure his contract. There was also rumors last season that AJ Green wanted out of Cincy. There were rumors by “league sources” that Geno Atkins wanted out this season ahead of the trade deadline and his uninspired play this season either is from him falling off a cliff OR similar to Dunlap from him not wanting to be in that locker room any longer. I’m inclined after seeing Dunlap perform to assume the latter.

——
I never said he “lost the locker room”, though I also don’t believe that he ever WON the locker room like a good new coach has to be able to do. The Bengals aren’t a team that, the last two seasons, was somehow far less talented than the Giants or Dolphins last season... yet their results speak for themselves. You have no further to look than at the Browns for a team that with a good/great coach like Stefanski looks far different than under the unprepared/bad coaches like Hue Jackson and Freddie Kitchens.

Could Zac Taylor FINALLY be winning over his locker room after 2 years as a HC? Perhaps, but most coaches are able to do that over the course of the first quarter, maybe half (4-8 games) of their rookie coaching season. If this is the kind of development track Taylor is on, perhaps he’s hoping to be blessed with a Methusela type lifespan in order to achieve GOAT HC status.

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

Players effort has never waned - not once. 

You can say a lot of negative things about Taylor. You can say that he has had communication issues with Marvin’s vets, you can say his choice of supporting coaching staff has been poor, you can say regardless of significant injuries to the roster he should have won more games in two years, but you can’t say the players haven’t bought in or that they aren’t showing effort. There’s absolutely no evidence for that at all. Not from legitimate locker room reports or visual evidence from actually watching the games. In fact, I’d go as so far to say the locker room culture has been awesome. Everybody works their tail off and you can see it on Sundays, even during a lost season the players play hard and look focused. 

Perhaps I should’ve said, field result vs locker room. Since none of us are in that locker room to know that. But based on the Ravens and Steelers games I’ve seen this season, I’ve never seen a Bengals team look so content with losing. They didn’t even look like they cared when the camera men cut to their faces on the sidelines. They weren’t dejected, they weren’t upset, nope... they were just looked content with what they were putting out there on the field.

Whereas a guy like Flores when we played them last season and were blowing them out, I said after we blew them out, and I can grave dig the thread too... that the Dolphins would win 4-5 games. Much to the chagrin of FF’s finest who laughed it off as outrageous. But you can see that Flores found losing and a lack of performance to be unacceptable. He wasn’t cursing people out though, he was on the sidelines coaching up the young players that were making mistakes. He was, simply put, coaching... whereas Zac Taylor was content to sit on the ball vs the Steelers vs trying to get quality real game reps to improve his squad. And against the Ravens he was content to lose so long as he didn’t get “shut out”.

[43M]

20 minutes ago, Malfatron said:

Maybe Mike Tomlin, who knows?

😄

Regardless of my feelings on Tomlin, the chances of him being fired are about the same chances Adam Gase has of winning coach of the year.

[SmittyBacall]

47 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

I shrug you off because you waited 2 weeks to respond to my original comment

No, I just saw this thread now, actually.

52 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Carlos Dunlap:
7 games with the Bengals- 4 QBHs, 2 PDs, 2 tkfl, 1 sk
7 games with the Seahawks- 11 QBHs, 1 PD, 6 TFL, 4.5 sks

Looks like he’s definitely performing harder for his new team.

Possibly. Dunlap is a curious example. He wasn’t a fit for Anarumo’s scheme, saw his playing time cut, and subsequently didn’t take that in stride. He wasn’t happy and wanted out, so he took a page out of ABs playbook and did everything he could to force the Bengals hand to trade him. In the beginning of the season, before all this kicked off, he was wildly unproductive (for whatever reason). We don’t know what went on behind the scenes, so like I said earlier, this is mostly conjecture. Also, I’m pretty sure this year was also the only year Dunlap wasn’t voted as a team captain (which is voted on by the players), so take that information as you may. 

57 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Whereas for the Bengals he looked about as productive as Geno Atkins looked before he shut it down.

Geno has been nursing an injured shoulder all season. He was barely playing any snaps. Effort wasn’t his issue.

57 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

There was also rumors last season that AJ Green wanted out of Cincy.

“Rumours” versus Green saying numerous times himself he wants to retire a Bengal. I’ll take my info straight from the source.

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

I never said he “lost the locker room”, though I also don’t believe that he ever WON the locker room like a good new coach has to be able to do.

Numerous quotes from our various team captains seem to differ. They are all steadfast in having bought into his vision.

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Could Zac Taylor FINALLY be winning over his locker room after 2 years as a HC? Perhaps, but most coaches are able to do that over the course of the first quarter, maybe half (4-8 games) of their rookie coaching season. If this is the kind of development track Taylor is on, perhaps he’s hoping to be blessed with a Methusela type lifespan in order to achieve GOAT HC status.

Again, the team has already bought in. You don’t go out there and bust your butt without already buying in. It’s almost a prerequisite. 

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Perhaps I should’ve said, field result vs locker room. Since none of us are in that locker room to know that. But based on the Ravens and Steelers games I’ve seen this season, I’ve never seen a Bengals team look so content with losing. They didn’t even look like they cared when the camera men cut to their faces on the sidelines. They weren’t dejected, they weren’t upset, nope... they were just looked content with what they were putting out there on the field.

I’m not sure what to say, man. We’re not seeing the same thing. 

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

He wasn’t cursing people out though, he was on the sidelines coaching up the young players that were making mistakes. He was, simply put, coaching... whereas Zac Taylor was content to sit on the ball vs the Steelers vs trying to get quality real game reps to improve his squad. And against the Ravens he was content to lose so long as he didn’t get “shut out”.

I’m not buying this either. 

The jury is still out on Taylor, IMO. He’s been handed such a god awful hand last year and the second half of this year that it’s hard to cast reasonable judgement. We’ve been afflicted by so many catastrophic injuries I have a tough time believing any HC could find sustainable success. We’ll see how he handles his assistant coaches this offseason, and how he does next year with a hopefully upgraded/competent offensive line. 

[diamondbull424]

16 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

No, I just saw this thread now, actually.

Still, for me, this thread is understandably the least thing on my mind is my point. I found it “curious” that you responded so late, but regardless of intent... just as you didn’t know this topic existed, I actually forgot it existed until I got a notification, so I’m just not that “into” it, if that makes sense. 😂

19 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

Possibly. Dunlap is a curious example. He wasn’t a fit for Anarumo’s scheme, saw his playing time cut, and subsequently didn’t take that in stride. He wasn’t happy and wanted out, so he took a page out of ABs playbook and did everything he could to force the Bengals hand to trade him. In the beginning of the season, before all this kicked off, he was wildly unproductive (for whatever reason). We don’t know what went on behind the scenes, so like I said earlier, this is mostly conjecture. Also, I’m pretty sure this year was also the only year Dunlap wasn’t voted as a team captain (which is voted on by the players), so take that information as you may. 

True. I know he’s been hurt, but some rumors suggested that AJ Green wasn’t really as “hurt” as he let on last season, but rather that he just didn’t want to be in Cincy and thus didn’t play. So while it’s only Jason LaCanforna and taken with a grain of salt, rumors also suggested that Atkins along with Dunlap wanted out prior to the trade deadline. Dunlap was traded, which tells me that their is a grain of truth to that rumor.

So my question is, would Geno Atkins be as “hurt” if he were on a new team? Has he been simply pulling a Jalen Ramsey. He’s at the age where it could go either way and I’m sure he would never publicly admit to it, so there’s no way to know which it is. But the fact that multiple rumors have persisted about key veterans under the old regime wanting out over the last two seasons makes me believe where there is smoke there is fire. So I’m certainly leaning closer to Atkins and Green being guys that have better years next season when they’ve bought in/choose the team they go to.

34 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

“Rumours” versus Green saying numerous times himself he wants to retire a Bengal. I’ll take my info straight from the source.

I wasn’t aware that he said it numerous times. I saw that Geoff Hobson reported Green’s feelings in a tweet that multiple news sources reposted. Though if Green has said it again within season while at a presser or something, that’d be new information worth considering. Though if he signs elsewhere and has a good season, I reserve the right to feel like this was just another example of a player “saying the right things” for the media.

41 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

Numerous quotes from our various team captains seem to differ. They are all steadfast in having bought into his vision.

Again, the team has already bought in. You don’t go out there and bust your butt without already buying in. It’s almost a prerequisite.

Perhaps, I don’t see it. The emotions just didn’t look the same to me as I’ve seen with some other bad teams over the years. Though I’ve only seen 2 1/2 games... (caught half of the Browns game.) What’s more this statement was made prior to the win over the Steelers, which I decided not to watch... because of my lack of faith in Taylor. That was the first game that TRULY impressed me. Even if it was against a skidding Steelers squad, the fact that guys didn’t just roll over was a good enough sign.

I still don’t think Taylor is a good coach... as these are the kinds of things I was looking to see from his team LAST season. I think I would still personally still fire him, if the Bengals either a) don’t beat the Ravens or b) show some grit in a loss. For instance, the Giants lost to the Ravens but that very easily could’ve been a 40+ pts- 6 pts godstomp. Yet they’re a well coached team that refused to roll over at any point in the game and kept it as competitive as their talent allowed them to do. That’s the kind of thing I want to see from the Bengals even IF they lose to the Ravens, but especially being the last game of their season, if they rollover... that’d be the final nail in telling me all I need to know about Taylor as a HC. If he gets the absolute best out of that squad on Sunday, I’ll change my opinion to “see how he looks next season” but as of now, I’m still in the “fire him” camp. But I’m not inflexible enough to change my opinion with more information.

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

I’m not sure what to say, man. We’re not seeing the same thing. 

Nothing wrong with that. It happens. Apparently over 70% of FF think that Joe Burrow will be better than Lamar Jackson. Like half seemed to think Burrow was more impressive this season than Justin Herbert as well. Those are opinions I also disagree with. My opinion certainly isn’t always in the majority... sometimes I’m wrong and sometimes I’m right, it’s whatever.

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

I’m not buying this either. 

The jury is still out on Taylor, IMO. He’s been handed such a god awful hand last year and the second half of this year that it’s hard to cast reasonable judgement. We’ve been afflicted by so many catastrophic injuries I have a tough time believing any HC could find sustainable success. We’ll see how he handles his assistant coaches this offseason, and how he does next year with a hopefully upgraded/competent offensive line. 

Not sure what their is to buy. Maybe with everything else, you could call it all conjecture and call those takes flagrant to your hearts content. But against the Steelers in that first game he had the opportunity to try and march down the field and put more points up on the board, yet he decided to just run the football out instead. That was a perfect opportunity to get two minute warning type reps for his young offense, yet he just chose to run the ball out in submission.

Whereas against Miami last year when we were blowing them out, Brian Flores down by well over 4 TD scores, was calling TOs to practice his clock management. He was trying to get his offense to march down there and put points on the board. He was coaching and having his team compete for the full 60 minutes of the game and didn’t allow his players to pack it in- at all. He was treating the end of that game as if it was a joint scrimmage game to get the most out of it.

It was (IMO) very easy to see the foundation for the winning culture we see in Miami today. The Dolphins were dealt bad hands too. They had what, like 19 new players on that squad to start last season? They had to trade away a young, potentially (at the time) elite piece because he didn’t like how he was being utilized. Yet every decision they made was quick and decisive. Minkah Fitzpatrick didn’t buy in, they got rid of him, so as not to pollute Flores’ locker room. Veterans that had specific expectations and didn’t align with the culture they wanted to build? They got rid of very quickly. People confused that with tanking vs building a proper winning culture from the ground up. I disagreed with that tanking take VERY early into last season and defended Flores. That Dolphins team overachieved expectations. I have yet to see Taylor’s teams overachieve expectations. So whether one likes him or if players are having fun in his locker room or what have you... he has not shown the X factor needed (to this point) to convince me he’s going to mine more wins out of his team talent than not. Which is an especially big problem when the coaches he’s competing against are Tomlin, Harbaugh, and Stefanski; all coaches with winning% above 60, two of which who have been at it for over a decade.

Taylor can’t afford to simply be a JAG level HC in this division... and to call him even a JAG would be an insult to a JAG at this point in time. But I already said what I need to see from him in this upcoming game.

If this post is too long, you said I “shrugged you off” before. This is me providing you with the decency to flush out the totality of my opinion. Just FYI before I get some of the “too long, I didn’t read” type of posts that other such posters have been known to provide on such occasions after this kind of response.

Either way, like you said, the jury is still out with Taylor; though my jury is about 90% decided at this point. We’ll see if he’s able to provide a more compelling argument (to me) in the future.

[KingOfNewYork]

I dont believe in firing coaches after 2 seasons honestly. I think every coach deserves 4 years especially going into rebuilding situations.