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Randy Moss: Me, TO, then Rice


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On 12/20/2020 at 11:49 AM, Bullet Club said:

There is legitimately no argument for any WR being better than Jerry Rice. 

Really? What makes him so much better than Larry Fitzgerald? Or Paul Warfield (those are the two that I consider the best ever, followed by Julio Jones and Moss)?

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Moss is right if he's talking about talent.  That's the only way he's right.

If Moss had Rice's work ethic or even TO's work ethic, he'd be the unquestioned GOAT. 

In 14 seasons 15,000 yards, 156 touchdowns.

Rice had 7 more seasons and 2 Hall of Fame quarterbacks and only had 41 more touchdown receptions and 7,000 more yards. 

There's also the mental thing that kept Randy Moss from reaching his full potential and getting sent away from a couple teams.

So yeah, Moss was the greatest WR of all-time.  It's a semantics thing though.  Jerry's work ethic and personality and Jerry Rice the person make him the undisputed GOAT.  If we're talking pure on the field though... It's Moss. 

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People are just glossing over that Rice was having elite seasons at 35, a good 2-3 seasons after most WRs expire.

Do you think Randy Moss wanted to retire in his mid 30s? Probably not, given how he tried to latch onto San Francisco for a run.

Longevity is a skill you should be able to quantify pretty quickly. 

1 hour ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Really? What makes him so much better than Larry Fitzgerald?

Jerry Rice was outdoing Larry Fitzgerald's 35 year old season in his 40s. That's unheard of if you really break down how much athleticism you should lose in your mid 30s. Fitzgerald is relegated to a WR3 at an age when Rice was still a WR1.

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3 hours ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Really? What makes him so much better than Larry Fitzgerald? Or Paul Warfield (those are the two that I consider the best ever, followed by Julio Jones and Moss)?

The fact that he dwarfs their contributions on the football field. Way higher peak, way better prime, way better longevity. Larry Fitzgerald led the NFL in catches twice, and TDs twice. Warfield led the NFL in TDs twice. Jones led the league in catches once and yards twice. Rice led in catches twice, yards six times, and TDs six times. If you aren't paying attention, the latter two categories  are more than those three players you value higher combined. Oh, and he was just as productive without Montana/Young when they were out.

That's him straight up being better. Then comes longevity. This may be Fitzgerald's last season. Rice put up 410 catches 5,283 and 33 TDs from age 37 on (Fitzgerald's current age), and he did it from 1999-2004. Rice almost accumulated Warfield's entire career in terms of numbers post age 35. Julio Jones at 35 will be a nobody. Fitzgerald, Warfield, and Jones aren't on the same planet as Rice. Moss was the Wilt to Rice's Jordan. He should've been better but wasn't.

 

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2 hours ago, Bullet Club said:

The fact that he dwarfs their contributions on the football field. Way higher peak, way better prime, way better longevity. Larry Fitzgerald led the NFL in catches twice, and TDs twice. Warfield led the NFL in TDs twice. Jones led the league in catches once and yards twice. Rice led in catches twice, yards six times, and TDs six times. If you aren't paying attention, the latter two categories  are more than those three players you value higher combined. Oh, and he was just as productive without Montana/Young when they were out.

That's him straight up being better. Then comes longevity. This may be Fitzgerald's last season. Rice put up 410 catches 5,283 and 33 TDs from age 37 on (Fitzgerald's current age), and he did it from 1999-2004. Rice almost accumulated Warfield's entire career in terms of numbers post age 35. Julio Jones at 35 will be a nobody. Fitzgerald, Warfield, and Jones aren't on the same planet as Rice. Moss was the Wilt to Rice's Jordan. He should've been better but wasn't.

 

Rice and Jordan were puffed up by the media to a fair degree. In the 90's, Pat Haden used to pump Rice up on SNF broadcasts, calling him the best player ever, not just the best WR. That was propaganda. Also, Jordan was deified despite winning six titles in a watered-down league (Wilt had to play against teams with six HOFers while MJ didn't).

Fitzgerald dealt with a QB carousel his whole career. Also, he didn't play in a short passing offense running slants all the time and not taking too many hits (there was a myth put out back then that Rice was tough and took a lot of hits). As for Warfield, he played with teams that ran the ball the majority of the time (however, the Fins didn't win another title after he left. The Niners won two SB's and went to the 97 NFC Title Game without the sainted Rice). If those guys played in Rice's place with SF in the 80's and 90's, they would have the same production. I am not saying that Rice sucked. I am just saying that he (along with guys like Brady, Montana, and Steve Young) had a lot of his success due to the system that he was in.

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21 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Rice and Jordan were puffed up by the media to a fair degree. In the 90's, Pat Haden used to pump Rice up on SNF broadcasts, calling him the best player ever, not just the best WR. That was propaganda. Also, Jordan was deified despite winning six titles in a watered-down league (Wilt had to play against teams with six HOFers while MJ didn't).

Fitzgerald dealt with a QB carousel his whole career. Also, he didn't play in a short passing offense running slants all the time and not taking too many hits (there was a myth put out back then that Rice was tough and took a lot of hits). As for Warfield, he played with teams that ran the ball the majority of the time (however, the Fins didn't win another title after he left. The Niners won two SB's and went to the 97 NFC Title Game without the sainted Rice). If those guys played in Rice's place with SF in the 80's and 90's, they would have the same production. I am not saying that Rice sucked. I am just saying that he (along with guys like Brady, Montana, and Steve Young) had a lot of his success due to the system that he was in.

Jerry Rice was just as good when Montana/Young were out. Go check his stats when he those guys were injured. There were still better than Larry's. It's the laziest argument in the world to say he was propped up by great QB play when he dominated with everyone. At age 40 he made the Pro Bowl with a completely different team. The system didn't make him. Those other guys simply don't measure up.

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Rice is a POS! 

What he did to Steve Largent was disgusting. Total lack of character and respect for another HOF player.  He should of never asked, out of respect for Largent.

And don't think it wasn't a calculated move to ask him in public. Largent was running for Senator at that time and how would it look (petty) for him to say no publicly to the great Jerry Rice!!!

 

Edited by m haynes
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His quote made me curious about something:  He said Rice is either "3rd or 4th."  If he puts Rice at 4th, who do you think he's putting in at 3rd?  I may be extremely biased by saying Rice is my 1st, no questions asked, but like.... I'm having a really hard time putting 3 guys ahead of him, even if it's just for giggles.  Megatron, maybe?  Longevity isn't there, but he did have the dominance there for a while.  Fitz?  An argument could be made, I suppose.  

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On 12/20/2020 at 7:51 AM, One said:

In terms of pure overall talent, Moss. When motivated, he was unstoppable.

In terms of the complete package, Rice. Unlike Moss, there was never a time when his motivation and work ethic was questioned.

Moss is just about the most naturally talented wideout in the history of the game.  

That's why Jerry Rice likes Antonio Brown so much. 

He sees a lot of himself in A.B.   

Not in terms of character (definitely not what I'm referring to), but in terms of work ethic.  

A.B. came a very long way to get to being the player he was in his final years with us.  

So did Jerry Rice when he played for San Francisco.  

Plus, he had two HoF QBs throwing to him, so that needs to be emphasized.  

Randy Moss didn't have anybody other than Tom Brady for a couple years.    

Edited by RamblinMan99
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11 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Rice had 7 more seasons and 2 Hall of Fame quarterbacks and only had 41 more touchdown receptions and 7,000 more yards. 

Only? Imagine telling someone they have to play for SEVEN more seasons all while averaging 6TDs and 1,000 yards a season. That's not small beans man.

The difference between Rice and Moss are most good receivers careers. That's how crazy Rice's stats are. He's has enough stats, accolades, and records for two HoFers.

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1 hour ago, NJerseypaint said:

Only? Imagine telling someone they have to play for SEVEN more seasons all while averaging 6TDs and 1,000 yards a season. That's not small beans man.

The difference between Rice and Moss are most good receivers careers. That's how crazy Rice's stats are. He's has enough stats, accolades, and records for two HoFers.

Randy Moss averaged 11 touchdowns a season.

There was no receiver in the history of the NFL who was a bigger every play TD threat than Randy Moss.

I don’t really care enough about yardage and overall to argue over the rest, but if Moss had played with even a healthy Daunte Culpepper his entire career, Rice’s TD record is obliterated.

Spergon Wynn, Rusty Smith, Andrew Walter, Marques Tuiasosopo and Todd Bouman is 1/4 of the names of the 20 quarterbacks to throw Moss a TD pass.

20 different quarterbacks.  He had Brady for what, a year?  Favre for three games?  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1851062-randy-moss-tries-to-name-20-quarterbacks-who-threw-him-a-pass-in-14-year-career.amp.html

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11 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Randy Moss averaged 11 touchdowns a season.

Jerry averaged nine, so it's not some huge gap.

12 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I don’t really care enough about yardage and overall to argue over the rest, but if Moss had played with even a healthy Daunte Culpepper his entire career, Rice’s TD record is obliterated.

This being said, if Rice played with a healthy Joe Montana (who never played a full 16 games with Rice) or Steve Young (three full seasons out of eight seasons together) then that number Moss is aiming for is much higher.

Joe Montana was brittle, Steve Young was reckless (and - let's be real - he was Josh Rosen before Josh Rosen was even born, a high draft pick that was given up on very early). Both missed time, ceding to the likes of Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac and Bill Musgrave. Guess who still performed at a high level?

On top of that, how about Rich Gannon? Without Rice, he's a journeyman backup/CFL roster fodder. With Rice? NFL MVP.

So let's not try to paint a picture of Rice as working exclusively with top talent.

https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/5/27/17400000/jerry-rices-stats-greatest-receiver-ever-randy-moss

Check the numbers on this.

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