MacReady Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 26 minutes ago, ET80 said: Jerry averaged nine, so it's not some huge gap. This being said, if Rice played with a healthy Joe Montana (who never played a full 16 games with Rice) or Steve Young (three full seasons out of eight seasons together) then that number Moss is aiming for is much higher. Joe Montana was brittle, Steve Young was reckless (and - let's be real - he was Josh Rosen before Josh Rosen was even born, a high draft pick that was given up on very early). Both missed time, ceding to the likes of Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac and Bill Musgrave. Guess who still performed at a high level? On top of that, how about Rich Gannon? Without Rice, he's a journeyman backup/CFL roster fodder. With Rice? NFL MVP. So let's not try to paint a picture of Rice as working exclusively with top talent. https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/5/27/17400000/jerry-rices-stats-greatest-receiver-ever-randy-moss Check the numbers on this. Granted, but look again at what I’ve said and tell me if you disagree with any of it: Randy Moss and Rice’s work ethic, head is the GOAT (essentially acknowledging Rice is GOAT). Moss had almost consistent terrible QB play. Moss was the single greatest “score at any time” threat in NFL history at the WR position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJerseypaint Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 12 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Randy Moss averaged 11 touchdowns a season. There was no receiver in the history of the NFL who was a bigger every play TD threat than Randy Moss. I don’t really care enough about yardage and overall to argue over the rest, but if Moss had played with even a healthy Daunte Culpepper his entire career, Rice’s TD record is obliterated. Spergon Wynn, Rusty Smith, Andrew Walter, Marques Tuiasosopo and Todd Bouman is 1/4 of the names of the 20 quarterbacks to throw Moss a TD pass. 20 different quarterbacks. He had Brady for what, a year? Favre for three games? https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1851062-randy-moss-tries-to-name-20-quarterbacks-who-threw-him-a-pass-in-14-year-career.amp.html Obliterated? Oh c'mon. Rice's career TD count is 208 - so for the 13 years Moss actually was serviceable he'd have to average 16 TDs a year (a 50% uptick in TD production) to match that. That's a tall order as it stands. I can understand why you wouldn't want to argue other important stats like yardage and receptions. because even if Moss had "a healthy Daunte Culpepper his entire career" he wouldn't sniff those records. It's a losing battle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 20 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Randy Moss and Rice’s work ethic, head is the GOAT (essentially acknowledging Rice is GOAT). I can buy this. 20 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Moss had almost consistent terrible QB play. Eh... I'll give you Kerry Collins in Oakland. Rest were average at worst. Not exactly HoF, sure. But when I think terrible QB play, I think Cleo Lemon or Nathan Peterman. 23 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Moss was the single greatest “score at any time” threat in NFL history at the WR position. If so, Rice wasn't too far behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 43 minutes ago, ET80 said: I can buy this. Eh... I'll give you Kerry Collins in Oakland. Rest were average at worst. Not exactly HoF, sure. But when I think terrible QB play, I think Cleo Lemon or Nathan Peterman. Did you read the names of five quarterbacks who threw him touchdowns a bit ago? Because I literally never heard of any of them. Spergon Wynn. Threw one career TD, 7 career interceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, ET80 said: I can buy this. Eh... I'll give you Kerry Collins in Oakland. Rest were average at worst. Not exactly HoF, sure. But when I think terrible QB play, I think Cleo Lemon or Nathan Peterman. If so, Rice wasn't too far behind. Considering Rice led the league in TDs more than Moss did I'd argue he was on par if not better. If Rice retired at 35 like Moss did he'd average more TD/gm then Moss. Shame he was too good to not play into his 40's and still be productive. Also, Rice certainly worked better with subpar QB play then Moss. Moss' 3 games with Wynn were worse than any game 49er Rice ever had with a backup QB. Moss did it three weeks in a row. Edited December 23, 2020 by Bullet Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7DnBrnc53 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 17 hours ago, Bullet Club said: Jerry Rice was just as good when Montana/Young were out. Go check his stats when he those guys were injured. There were still better than Larry's. It's the laziest argument in the world to say he was propped up by great QB play when he dominated with everyone. At age 40 he made the Pro Bowl with a completely different team. The system didn't make him. Those other guys simply don't measure up. His last two years in San Fran, he didn't dominate with Jeff Garcia at QB. And, when he went to Oakland, he was basically in the same system (Jon Gruden coached under Mike Holmgren, who coached under Walsh), and he had another HOF WR opposite him in Tim Brown to take the pressure off (Brown led the team in catches in 2001 with 91). Larry Fitzgerald made 11 Pro Bowls, including the 2010-12 season, when he had guys like Kevin Kolb, Max Hall, and John Skelton, Richard Bartel, and Ryan Lindley throwing to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said: His last two years in San Fran, he didn't dominate with Jeff Garcia at QB. And, when he went to Oakland, he was basically in the same system (Jon Gruden coached under Mike Holmgren, who coached under Walsh), and he had another HOF WR opposite him in Tim Brown to take the pressure off (Brown led the team in catches in 2001 with 91). Larry Fitzgerald made 11 Pro Bowls, including the 2010-12 season, when he had guys like Kevin Kolb, Max Hall, and John Skelton, Richard Bartel, and Ryan Lindley throwing to him. Rice was 37 and 38 his last two years in San Francisco, and still had over 800 yards both years next to an emerging Terrell Owens. At that point in time Rice could lay claim to the "I didn't have a good QB" card. Rich Gannon in Oakland obviously gave him a boost. In his prime Rice still dominated with the likes of Jeff Kemp, Mike Moroski, Elvis Grbac, and Steve Bono chucking the rock. Edited December 23, 2020 by TecmoSuperJoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breesus mode Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Jerry Rice vs. Randy Moss, who was more dominant? : 49ers (reddit.com) Food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 On 12/23/2020 at 12:18 PM, Breesus mode said: Jerry Rice vs. Randy Moss, who was more dominant? : 49ers (reddit.com) Food for thought. You can always count on getting some good, unbiased food for thought on this subject on a 49ers board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 On 12/22/2020 at 6:48 PM, ET80 said: Jerry averaged nine, so it's not some huge gap. This being said, if Rice played with a healthy Joe Montana (who never played a full 16 games with Rice) or Steve Young (three full seasons out of eight seasons together) then that number Moss is aiming for is much higher. Joe Montana was brittle, Steve Young was reckless (and - let's be real - he was Josh Rosen before Josh Rosen was even born, a high draft pick that was given up on very early). Both missed time, ceding to the likes of Steve Bono, Elvis Grbac and Bill Musgrave. Guess who still performed at a high level? On top of that, how about Rich Gannon? Without Rice, he's a journeyman backup/CFL roster fodder. With Rice? NFL MVP. So let's not try to paint a picture of Rice as working exclusively with top talent. https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/5/27/17400000/jerry-rices-stats-greatest-receiver-ever-randy-moss Check the numbers on this. Come on, man. That's overstating things a bit. Quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said: Come on, man. That's overstating things a bit. Quite a bit. Who was he before? Didn't he once lose his starting gig to Sean Salisbury in Minnesota? He wasn't MVP calibur, that's my point - we can argue how far down the trough he was from MVP, but Rice did elevate him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 1 hour ago, ET80 said: Who was he before? Didn't he once lose his starting gig to Sean Salisbury in Minnesota? He wasn't MVP calibur, that's my point - we can argue how far down the trough he was from MVP, but Rice did elevate him. He wasn't given much of a chance, or much coaching in Minnesota. I actually heard Rich on a podcast a few years ago and he talked about how he didn't really learn to be an NFL quarterback until he was working with Mike McCarthy in Kansas City. He spoke VERY highly about McCarthy in how he taught him how to study film, learn the offense, prepare for games, etc., etc. This was something he hadn't gotten in his time at Minnesota. The reason I remember it so vividly is because I was disgusted that Denny Green didn't do right by a young quarterback who he drafted. He let Gannon walk and he then went on to become a very good QB after he got some coaching. I'm sure it didn't hurt having good players around him either. He had Rice in Oakland and another very good player (was it Tim Brown?). In any case, at that point in his career, Jerry Rice certainly didn't create an league MVP out of a guy who was a lousy (journeyman/CFL roster fodder) quarterback before he got to Oakland. That was my point. Gannon was a decent QB by the time he got to Oakland. Anyway, it's about 20 minutes until Christmas, so I don't want to be arguing with anyone about anything on this blessed day. Have a great Christmas, ET! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 On 12/22/2020 at 8:40 PM, ET80 said: Eh... I'll give you Kerry Collins in Oakland. Don't forget Andrew Walter, Aaron Brooks and Marques Tuiasosopo. Also Matt Cassel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamblinMan99 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 On 12/22/2020 at 8:40 PM, ET80 said: Eh... I'll give you Kerry Collins in Oakland. Rest were average at worst. Not exactly HoF, sure. But when I think terrible QB play, I think Cleo Lemon or Nathan Peterman. So what you're saying here is your QB standards are as low as anybody could get? Dude, Moss is better than Rice by a country mile. Be done with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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