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Defense Discussion [2017]


CentralFC

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Just now, CWood21 said:

And it's part of the reason why I'm hopeful that when they do transition on past Ted Thompson whether it be Wolf or Gut or someone else that they're going to be a bit more receptive to FA.  I'm not asking for them to break the bank on FA year after year, but 1 year deals for veteran players isn't the worst additions to make.

I think somebody got to Thompson on that this year.  No way Thompson would have signed House, Bennet, Kendricks, RJF and Jahri Evans without somebody putting their foot down. 

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4 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I think somebody got to Thompson on that this year.  No way Thompson would have signed House, Bennet, Kendricks, RJF and Jahri Evans without somebody putting their foot down. 

I would hope so.  It was very out of character for Ted to sign so many FA.  I wouldn't really count Kendricks, House, and RFJ as they were all cut by their previous teams and don't count towards the compensatory picks.

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When it comes down to it I think this defense will be very different and that's not good or bad. I think you had a good amount of turnover at certain positions and a flux of new players. The biggest thing to look for in mind pitting is obviously the additions in the secondary. House should be a sod Edition hopefully if he's a good #2 guy TT has hit what he wanted to do. The biggest thing how ever will be the skill-set and size of Jones and King.  There's no way possible that Rollins and Randall can be as bad as they were last season. Both had really strong and promising rookie campaign however injuries and other things caught up to both of them in their second years. With all that being said although young I think the secondary has a lot more versatility, depth, and talent. 

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I actually feel ok about our back end. They won't be an elite group, but they should be adequate with the added depth and increased experience. My main concern is the front seven. OLB is going to be a wild ride given the lack of depth and injury concerns for Perry, Matthews, and Biegel.

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I like Capers and think he's a good DC, however, I don't think he's a great fit for the way Ted Thompson runs a team (which I also don't have a problem with). I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Capers defense is very complicated, which requires experienced veterans and the need to bring in free-agents from time to time. 

I'm quite pleased with this off-season, and I think RJF and House were extremely underrated signings. I'm optimistic about our secondary, however, I think the real concern is at edge. There's a good chance both Matthews and Perry miss time, and that likely leaves us with the Elliott-Fackrell duo -- which I'm not too excited to see. 

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you guys covered it really well. Central, Horizon, and CWood made some good points, and were honest about the philosophy of our GM perhaps getting in the way at times.  

i made the contention on twitter (yea i know) that Thompson deserves some criticism for not utilizing FA last season, and I was hounded by GB fans. any criticism of Thompson in regards to his philosophy of FA gets people interpreting it as "oh you want us to go sign a big name?". Quite the contrary, the offseason we just had was very good; the signings like Kendricks, House, Evans, and RJF are exactly the type of shrewd acquisitions I've been pining for in the past several years 

i agree with a previous post that suggested that there had to have been some pressure within the FO, scouts, whoever it may be to make Thompson be this proactive. it's very unlike him. whatever happened, I'm glad this was the outcome, and for as long as TT is here I hope he takes that approach. we don't need to splurge on a 70M player. when the margins for greatness at the top of a sports league are small, it's these small, smart contracts that can be the difference

I also agree that we can expect a significant bounceback from our secondary. while I disagree on Shields being a top corner (and would contend we haven't had any top corners in the Capers era other than Wood), he was a middle of the pack starting corner who had the speed to keep up with premier WRs, and that's all we needed. shutdown corners are hard to come by, as we all know. however, I'm probably a lot more hopeful of Kevin King than most of you here. I didn't like his tape at all, and I actually didn't want us to draft him. but considering the track record of Joe Whitt, i'm now hopeful of his upside in our secondary. when has Whitt ever had this kind of player, with his physical toolset? he's an athletic freak. I have more confidence in Whitt than any other position coach on our team, and I really think King has shutdown corner potential. 

i'm also been consistent in my belief of Damarious Randall. I think he can be a good starter, and he's saying and doing all the right things from the end of last season and now. i expect to see more of his rookie 2015 season and less of his 2016 self. 

VERY excited about Josh Jones. I've clamored for more guys with the mentality of Mike Daniels on this defense for years, tone setters. everything i'm reading about him is music to my ears. i want him to be great so bad it hurts. 

like many have mentioned, the concern lies with the thin depth at pass rush. i think, given limited roles, Biegel and Fackrell are decent high effort players. if either of them become starters out of necessity, I don't see us having the upside in our pass rush to really hurt the good teams in the playoffs, and too much will rest on our offense and Aaron's shoulders yet again. hopefully, the guy or guys who were pounding the table to get TT to be more proactive this offseason can do the same midseason if such an occasion were to arise. sign someone, trade for someone. do something! 

Aaron Rodgers said he's on the back 9 of his career. Football gods willing, that's another ten seasons of top QB play. he needs more help, from the supporting cast and the top decision makers to get him to the big dance. 

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This is going to sound pretty insane considering the outcome, but I genuinely don't think there was a significant change in philosophy. I think, we just reached a price point or a personality clash with everybody that left. Maybe with the exception of Cook.

The staff was done with Jones and Lacy from a personality stand point. 

Peppers didn't have anything left in the tank.

Lang got paid far more than the cutoff point for his position.

Hyde got paid real corner money.

Tretter got paid starter money when we didn't have a spot for him at either Center or Tackle.

The team got better value with Bennet than with Cook.

If anything I feel like now is the year to be most critical about the Free Agency activity. We've got 18 million in cap space left over. Last year we had 8.5ish. 

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If our defense this year is better than average that just might be good enough (and I believe it will be).  Look how far we got last year with our 2 best rushers literally playing one handed and a plodder like Gunter covering other teams' #1s.

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2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

This is going to sound pretty insane considering the outcome, but I genuinely don't think there was a significant change in philosophy. I think, we just reached a price point or a personality clash with everybody that left. Maybe with the exception of Cook.

The staff was done with Jones and Lacy from a personality stand point. 

Peppers didn't have anything left in the tank.

Lang got paid far more than the cutoff point for his position.

Hyde got paid real corner money.

Tretter got paid starter money when we didn't have a spot for him at either Center or Tackle.

The team got better value with Bennet than with Cook.

If anything I feel like now is the year to be most critical about the Free Agency activity. We've got 18 million in cap space left over. Last year we had 8.5ish. 

we still have that much cash? gdi 

a pass rusher or two would be nice

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I think McCarthy and perhaps Rodgers may have voiced their displeasure to Thompson in regards to not being active enough in free agency.  I definitely think they pushed hard to add quality tight ends to the roster .. offense just doesn't work near as well with subpar options there.  Perhaps some of the front office guys are getting a little more say in the direction of the club?  A few years ago Ted would have took the free agent losses and replaced them with draft picks and street free agents.  This offseason it was different.  Something changed.  

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^Technically, Kendricks and House and Evans were street free agents, but you're right all the same.  I honestly would have been okay with just adding House and Kendricks.  The thing I'm worried about most, and I certainly wasn't always like this, is what Thompson does through the course of the season to compensate for injuries.

In no world should we have been content with busted up corners entering the playoffs last year.  Instead of signing somebody, anybody, we brought up undrafted rookie corners, one of which was a converted receiver.  Since we didn't do anything remotely exotic in pass coverage against the Falcons, I feel like any single veteran corner available, even Charles Tillman (who asked to be signed by the Packers, he literally posted it on Twitter), would have given us a better chance to make it to and possibly win the Super Bowl.

I'm not, never have been and never will be big on adding free agents, especially big name free agents, in the offseason.  I'm all for signing veterans in roles we missed on during the draft or lost due to injury or free agency (exactly how we did with House, Bennett/Kendricks and Evans).  After last season though, I've definitely become very much a person who sees the benefit in doing more than nothing when in season injuries wreck a position group.

 

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10 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

If anything I feel like now is the year to be most critical about the Free Agency activity. We've got 18 million in cap space left over. Last year we had 8.5ish. 

I suppose it's possible.  When you exclude the street FA, the list of FA we actually signed isn't very long.  And that's why I've been vocal that part of TT's thinking when it comes to signing FA is how does it affect the compensatory draft picks.

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On 7/20/2017 at 9:56 AM, HorizontoZenith said:

I believe in Dom Capers when he has the right players.

I believe we would have been a top 15 defense last year in points if Shields had played the year out.

I believe we are heading towards a top 10 finish in points allowed this season.

Davon House and a healthy Damarious Randall would have improved our defense alone.  We also added King and Jones, who I think will pay massive dividends in our passing defense. 

The one thing that will hold us back is health in our pass rush.  I believe Elliot/Biegel/Fackrell will be more than capable relief pass rushers, but I do not have faith in their starting ability. 

Defensive line was probably our strongest unit last year all things considered, and we got BETTER there.  Not only with RJF, but also with Lowry, who I think is heading towards a very promising rotational career, and also with Kenny Clark, who I think is going to be our first first round HIT on the defensive line. 

I am very confident in our defense going into 2017. 

Holy crap that would be awesome. I think it is going in the right direction, but I view it as young and probably going to take another year. Asking Kenny King to do anything this year at least at the start is foolish. But next year I think fringe top ten if not top ten. This year 14-16th.

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Most teams are playing a lot of nickel defense these days -  up to 75 % of the time

Here's my question: When teams put 5 DBs on the field, do they always take a DL off the field ?

Couldn't you play 5 DBs with 3 DL and take one of the ILBs off the field ? Why is that a flawed strategy vs 11 personnel ?

OLB-DL-DL-DL-OLB

            ILB          

 DB-DB-DB-DB-DB

(don't get too hung up on my crappy graphic)

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45 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Most teams are playing a lot of nickel defense these days -  up to 75 % of the time

Here's my question: When teams put 5 DBs on the field, do they always take a DL off the field ?

Couldn't you play 5 DBs with 3 DL and take one of the ILBs off the field ? Why is that a flawed strategy vs 11 personnel ?

OLB-DL-DL-DL-OLB

            ILB          

 DB-DB-DB-DB-DB

(don't get too hung up on my crappy graphic)

It's a strategy that limits what you can do regarding versatility. Having only one second level defender is very difficult to operate with. It has big problems with pulling guards and lead blockers due to a lack of fill defender coming over the top. Typically to combat pulling guards or outside lead blockers, the first second level defender takes on the blocker, and the second guy has to flow over the top. 

Because you need that safety down in the box to act as a second level defender, there's no Cover-2 or Cover-4 in your book. It makes it hard to disguise what you're doing. 

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