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2 hours ago, JBURGE said:

I have never played them and likely never will. I don't like playing games where a core mechanic is being difficult, I just get angry and don't enjoy it. I just play games on Normal difficulty

Difficulty isn't a core mechanic. They merely require you to adapt to playing in different ways than you might be accustomed to from other similar games. There are occasional missteps in the designs of specific enemies and other challenges where they do become unfair, but you can find that sort of thing in most games. 

I would say that the difficulty of these titles mostly comes from people not having the patience to learn the combat systems, and just assuming they can button-mash their way to victory.

Edited by Starless
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11 minutes ago, Starless said:
2 hours ago, JBURGE said:

I have never played them and likely never will. I don't like playing games where a core mechanic is being difficult, I just get angry and don't enjoy it. I just play games on Normal difficulty

Difficulty isn't a core mechanic. They merely require you to adapt to playing in different ways than you might be accustomed to from other similar games. There are occasional missteps in the designs of specific enemies and other challenges where they do become unfair, but you can find that sort of thing in most games. 

I would say that the difficulty of these titles mostly comes from people not having the patience to learn the combat systems, and just assuming they can button-mash their way to victory.

I have never played them and likely never will. I don't like playing games where a core mechanic is being patient, I just get angry and don't enjoy it.

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1 minute ago, JBURGE said:

I have never played them and likely never will. I don't like playing games where a core mechanic is being patient, I just get angry and don't enjoy it.

fair enough. 

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22 minutes ago, Starless said:

fair enough. 

On a side note I also don't agree with you that the games were not designed to be difficult (along with Bloodborne). But again I haven't played them so who cares what I think

A game where it is common to have to play a boss 10 times to figure out how to beat it with trial and error is imo designed to be difficult

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1 hour ago, JBURGE said:

On a side note I also don't agree with you that the games were not designed to be difficult (along with Bloodborne). But again I haven't played them so who cares what I think

A game where it is common to have to play a boss 10 times to figure out how to beat it with trial and error is imo designed to be difficult

How many times do you think it should be required to fight a boss before you beat them? 

And frankly, that's a really bad framing because almost EVERY game I've ever played has contained fights like that. I remember losing to that 2-headed dragon in the ice cave in Final Fantasy VII like 20 times before beating it. I still have no idea how the hell to beat the final boss in the Doom Eternal DLC without exploiting an AI glitch.

It took me as many tries to beat the last two bosses in Hades as it has any Soulsborne boss. And that game isn't especially known for its difficulty. 

And conversely, there are tons of fights in these games that are pushovers. Pinwheel, The Witches of Hemwick and the Moonlight Butterfly are memetic to the degree that people who have never even played Dark Souls or Bloodborne know about them. And on top of that, almost all of the hardest bosses in every game are either optional or DLC-only.

Only one of the bosses in this video is required to complete a campaign in the base game it's from. 

Some that are considered 'wall' bosses in these games (Father Gascoigne, Ornstein & Smough, Pontiff Sulyvahn, Genichiro) are challenging, but eminently beatable if you understand the game's mechanics and pay attention to developer hints and item descriptions. And there are a few tough final bosses (Soul of Cinder, Gehrman, Isshin) but if the final boss of your action game isn't tough, then you've failed at game design, frankly.

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From Software is one of my favorite studios and Bloodborne is possibly my favorite single player game of all time... so I could be a bit bias here.

For me personally, games that are more difficult directly makes them more rewarding. When I fight a "boss" that I beat on the first try, I don't feel like I actually did anything. I don't feel satisfied. Fighting a boss over and over again, learning it's moves, creating a strategy, reworking the strategy, practicing the execution, etc. culminates to an incredibly rewarding experience when you finally win. I do understand how that's not for everyone, though, and the repeated failures can just lead to frustration.

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One thing I respect the hell out of is that the overall quality of the bosses seems to improve from game to game. The first Dark Souls had several battles that are poorly designed (looking at you, Bed of Chaos) and others that are just kind of boring to fight.

Skip ahead to Bloodborne and with the exception of the purely optional Witches of Hemwick and Celestial Emissary, the fights are all of a pretty high quality (especially the three main ones in the DLC), but there are still peaks and valleys in terms of challenge level as you progress.

Then in Dark Souls 3 you have not only a pretty steady level in boss quality (Curse-rotted Greatwood notwithstanding) but a steady ramp-up of the challenge level throughout the main game, and a further increase in the two DLCs.

Finally in Sekiro they absolutely nail the boss designs on every level (okay, the Folding Screen Monkeys are annoying but that's not even really a boss fight). Each boss is like a test of the skills you've learned up to that point in the game,  and you can't fight any two bosses the same way (seriously, try using the same strategy against Genichiro and the Guardian Ape and see where it gets you). But once you understand a boss' specific weaknesses and the skills that expose them, seemingly insurmountable challenges are suddenly much more manageable. Not only that, but the boss fights feel a lot more polished across the board than previous games. The hitboxes are generally very tight and they took care to eliminate cheese strategies against bosses in early patches. And there's nothing even remotely like the Centipede Demon from DS1, where you basically just wailed at it blindly while the camera obscured your view. 

I can't wait to see how they've further refined things in Elden Ring.

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5 hours ago, JBURGE said:

On a side note I also don't agree with you that the games were not designed to be difficult (along with Bloodborne). But again I haven't played them so who cares what I think

A game where it is common to have to play a boss 10 times to figure out how to beat it with trial and error is imo designed to be difficult

This is how frustrated I got with some of the bosses when I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic.  I would look on the forums and a couple other places for tips, and for every super helpful comment, there's someone basically saying "git gud", or an equally as helpful "learn the mechanics."  

This is why I much prefer story modes whenever possible.  And there are games I can play for that, which I am thankful for, and there are games for other people to enjoy as well.  

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4 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

This is how frustrated I got with some of the bosses when I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic.  I would look on the forums and a couple other places for tips, and for every super helpful comment, there's someone basically saying "git gud", or an equally as helpful "learn the mechanics."  

This is why I much prefer story modes whenever possible.  And there are games I can play for that, which I am thankful for, and there are games for other people to enjoy as well.  

Well, that's just what gamers are like. It's not really a reflection on the games themselves.

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There's a hole in my life that nothing else can fill.

2009 - Demon's Souls

2010 - Demon's Souls again once I actually figured out how to play it properly

2011 - Dark Souls

2012-2013 - Getting good

2014 - Dark Souls 2

2015 - Bloodborne

2016 - Dark Souls 3

2017 - A dark year. Had to get by with Nioh

2018 - Dark Souls Remastered

2019 - Sekiro

2020 - If it was easy to get a PS5, I'd have Demon's Souls Remasted (and maybe Bloodborne would play with tolerable load times), but sadly, no.

 

I need Elden Ring.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Well, we finally got a leak of an Elden Ring gameplay trailer...

 

...but also word that it probably won't be out in 2021.

 

I hate it here.

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