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Week 16 GDT: Giants @ Ravens -- We Need Help...


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16 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

You have to give people time adjust in the NFL. Roman has shown he can adjust his game (this year at least). You can't put all the blame on Roman and none on Lamar. Lamar has missed a ton of throws this year that would've made Roman look a lot better. Now they're both hitting their groove and you can see what that looks like. Now, if some great offensive guru becomes available sure, but I'm not going to fire Roman to hire someone random.

I mean...

57 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Lamar playing better down the stretch is partly to do with him displaying better accuracy and not pressing, but it’s also just as much to do with him having more capable receivers to throw to.

I definitely have provided Lamar blame. I’ve done it in the GDTs as well. But Roman has indeed directly led to this team losing as much as a coach can do. I mean short of a coach tripping a WR on a kickoff return that probably goes for a TD, I can’t say I’ve much seen any coach directly lead to results on the field. All of it is influence and indirect contributions FTMP. So unless you’re being holistically technical to such a degree than Roman has most certainly directly influenced our results.

How about 5 offensive penalties against the Titans in a very close game, coming from multiple sources? Or how inefficient the run game was to start the season where Patriots players were talking about how simple the offensive playcalling was PRIOR to the game for bulletin board material... and then backing it up by being the 1st (and only) team to hold a Lamar led Ravens squad under 20 points in a regular season game.

How about how long it took Roman to get the offensive plays in to Lamar so that he had less than 10 seconds to get through his motions and get a proper read of the defense before snapping.

So no, I don’t provide the same blame to a veteran OC as I do to a third year QB who is only 23 years old. But yes, I do provide Lamar blame as well. He has things he needs to work on for sure.

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53 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

But Roman has indeed directly led to this team losing as much as a coach can do.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

53 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

and then backing it up by being the 1st (and only) team to hold a Lamar led Ravens squad under 20 points in a regular season game.

So we want a guy fired who's only scored under 20 once? Got it.

 

Like I said he has his warts, but the team is also top 10 in scoring offense with a make shift OL & rookie contract starters. Teams adjusted to our offense and we've adjusted back. It's now the NFL goes. We should also fire Wink as well. His defense gets figured out in the second half.

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Or... just tell Roman not to abandon the run which this team is built on? That might work. Just don't have Gus Edwards with 3 and 6 carries like during the first 7 or 8 weeks. That's my problem with Roman. Ravens get down a score or two, he panics and starts calling to throw all over the place. Or with his goofy "ImMa uSe gUs As a cLOsEr". Just run the damn football until the wheels fall off. With that said, a lot of varibles are at play. The O-line is playing ALOT better than earlier this year and Lamar seems healthy and comfortable back there over the last few weeks. Long as Roman sticks to the runs with a sprinkle of the PA across the field, and a few deep shots, we'll be fine. But really, please run the football.

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2 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

Or... just tell Roman not to abandon the run which this team is built on? That might work. Just don't have Gus Edwards with 3 and 6 carries like during the first 7 or 8 weeks. That's my problem with Roman. Ravens get down a score or two, he panics and starts calling to throw all over the place. Or with his goofy "ImMa uSe gUs As a cLOsEr". Just run the damn football until the wheels fall off. With that said, a lot of varibles are at play. The O-line is playing ALOT better than earlier this year and Lamar seems healthy and comfortable back there over the last few weeks. Long as Roman sticks to the runs with a sprinkle of the PA across the field, and a few deep shots, we'll be fine. But really, please run the football.

Running to run the ball is stupid. If it’s not working you don’t keep doing it. It clearly wasn’t working that well previously. 

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2 hours ago, M.10.E said:

Running to run the ball is stupid. If it’s not working you don’t keep doing it. It clearly wasn’t working that well previously. 

It wasn't working? Edwards all season was averaging almost 5 yards a clip. Steelers game we had almost 200 yards at halftime and come out throwing when our QB was clearly struggling majority of the first half. Run game was fine, the coaching in the box wasn't. Same as when Harbaugh made us suffer through Skura in the Patriots game when he clearly didn't have it that day.  But I guess we'll agree to disagree.

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8 hours ago, M.10.E said:

This is absolutely ridiculous.

How is it absolutely ridiculous. Find the lie. Was there not a lot of offensive procedural penalties regarding guys lining up in the wrong places, centers false starting, and illegal shifts? If they were just holding calls I’d blame it on the player. If they were just illegal shifts, perhaps it’s on Lamar for not waiting for guys to get set... but it was a mess of penalties where guys just weren’t prepared all around the offense; so who else do I blame but the offensive coordinator leading the unit for these things?

8 hours ago, M.10.E said:

So we want a guy fired who's only scored under 20 once? Got it.

 

Like I said he has his warts, but the team is also top 10 in scoring offense with a make shift OL & rookie contract starters. Teams adjusted to our offense and we've adjusted back. It's now the NFL goes. We should also fire Wink as well. His defense gets figured out in the second half.

He’s done it 2x with the Ravens and 34 times in his OC career. But he’s great at putting together scoring offenses and elite at putting together a run game. I’ve already stated these things. I’m not sure what higher praise that could be provided than saying those things. Should I say that he’s world class?

Either way, as a QB coach he didn’t develop David Carr. As an important offensive coach on the Stanford staff, it was David Shaw entrusted with the development of Andrew Luck. Alex Smith and Colin K looked good under him, but neither offense was known for its creative passing attacks and ability to scheme open players for easier QB success. Was Colin K’s lack of development from his inability to put the work in or were the schematic challenges faced within Roman’s scheme what kept him from taking the next steps? I don’t know.

But this season what concerns me is he didn’t so much as make a proactive “adjustment” as much as a reactive “adjustment”. He didn’t diagnose a flaw within his own scheme and self correct. It took a major injury to a prominent member of this team for him to adjust.

So for Roman to get out of my doghouse I need to see these regular season successes translate to postseason successes. This coaching staff has been completely undressed in the last two playoff appearances, including Wink. But Wink has never gone so long in a season with his unit stagnating or performing below expectations for so long before making some sort of correction. With Wink, Queen sucks in coverage... try using Bowser in more coverage situations or deploying fronts with additional LBs and S’s as we saw against Jacksonville.

I’m not foolish to think that things WILL improve from Roman, I acknowledge that with my “grass is greener” reference. The grass isn’t always greener, however I know that Roman had major influence on the 2018 Ravens offense that under Flacco produced the 31st ranked rushing attack in the NFL, a clear outlier in his coaching career regardless of his standing, however that same staff and offense went on to average over 200 rushing yards/game over the final 7 games with Marty as the OC calling plays. How much of all of that success goes to Marty and how much to Roman? I’m not sure.

But if Marty could do it, could David Culley or James Urban also do it? I’m not sure, but I’d be interested in finding out if they can better mine out a stronger passing game while keeping our run schemes at a similar enough level competitively. I really like Greg Roman. I honestly think he’d make for a nice HC option for a team. He’s got plenty of coaching tree connections, he’s well loved, well spoken, demands respect, and diligent. I think he’d make for a fantastic CEO style HC that can help scheme dominant rushing attacks for his offensive coordinator to work with, I think he’d be better as a HC than he’s been even as an OC. But that high praise aside, I’m not confident enough in him at this point to forget like the entire 1st half of the season really wasn’t a thing, like some here have shifted to doing.

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9 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

If you fire Roman, you lose the concepts that lead you to having the best rushing attack the NFL has ever seen, but you might gain a better passing game.

If you keep Roman but fire/replace Culley, you lose nothing and gain everything. That is the way to go, IMO.

You forget that in 2018 our offense finished 13th in points and 9th in yards, while in 2019 they finished 1st in points and 2nd in yards. Now you might say... well that’s when we switched to Greg Roman as OC. Yet that was also the same year that David Culley was added to our staff as the pass game coordinator. As excellent as our rushing attack has been, Lamar also led the league in TD passes. Who designed those red zone plays that were so successful? You’d think that would be the pass game coordinator, David Culley, correct?

How much credit am I giving to Roman for that and how much to Culley? We can say the passing attack has had guys bunched in the same areas, we KNOW those are issues Roman has faced at multiple trips as an OC through his tenure in the NFL. But we don’t know if Culley is the one who has been designing our best pass plays but has been held back by Roman not implementing more of Culley’s designs into the overall game plan.

With Roman we’ve got more to judge him off of based on his roles as OC in other places. I think Culley and his unknown history doesn’t afford us the same ability to make clear projections. So getting rid of him isn’t as clear a path to fixing the problem as you suggest. In Greg Roman’s OC career, he’s never had an offense finish inside the top 10 in both scoring and yards, prior to having David Culley as his pass game coordinator. Is it that Lamar is JUST that much better than every QB he’s ever had? Possible. Is it that Culley has provided Roman’s offense with greater potential for explosive ability? Possible. We don’t know. So replace Culley and you risk Roman’s offense consistently remaining closer to mediocre than good to elite.

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20 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

If you fire Roman, you lose the concepts that lead you to having the best rushing attack the NFL has ever seen, but you might gain a better passing game.

If you keep Roman but fire/replace Culley, you lose nothing and gain everything. That is the way to go, IMO.

On the topic of possible new 'passing game coordinator' type figures... am I crazy for thinking Adam Gase might be a decent fit? He's never lived up to the offensive genius hype but he does seem to do a decent job scheming up the passing game. Biggest risk I would see really is that he doesn't check his ego at the door so some of it would just come down to whether this Jets experience has humbled him or not.

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10 minutes ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

On the topic of possible new 'passing game coordinator' type figures... am I crazy for thinking Adam Gase might be a decent fit? He's never lived up to the offensive genius hype but he does seem to do a decent job scheming up the passing game. Biggest risk I would see really is that he doesn't check his ego at the door so some of it would just come down to whether this Jets experience has humbled him or not.

I wouldn't want Gase just out of pure personality tbh

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2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I wouldn't want Gase just out of pure personality tbh

That's fair. My thought would be to have him in a role where you'd minimize the interpersonal elements of his job - beyond having to work with Roman, I suppose. Just lock him in a room and ask him to design plays for 9 months lol. 

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