Week 6 GDT - San Francisco 49ers @ Washington Redskins

[48 1/2ers]

Looks like we're down an OW. Does anyone replace him or do we just not run those formations. 

[Forge]

13 minutes ago, 48 1/2ers said:

Looks like we're down an OW. Does anyone replace him or do we just not run those formations. 

We would have a roster spot for McCloskey or whatever his name was, but it may be too late in the week for that. I don't know if they've had Kittle running plays out of that or not, so I would assume at this point that we just run more 1 / 2 / 2 sets. 

[straighthate]

J, my point is not about if he supports the president or Kaep or neither. My point is we have probably next to the strike shortened season, the biggest knock on ratings in NFL history. As a business owner, York had a responsibility to do what's best for his business and the league. I don't have a multi billion dollar business with employees paid in the millions so personally I don't have the answer to what the right call was. But I think if this whole National Anthem thing has cost the NFL and the Niners millions of dollars, then York and the NFL have not handled it well. Totally unrelated to who you agree with, but just financially speaking the whole thing has been a disaster. Also, in looking at the main parties..... Kap and other players who protested, 49ers, NFL, York, Goodell, fan base, more recently Trump, Jerry Jones, dude on the Steelers, etc, it's tough to find someone who has come out for the better because of the whole situation.  So as a businessman who has an obligation to his team (including Kap), his fan base, and the strength of the NFL, based on the fact none of them have come out for the better, I think York has failed miserably as the first owner that could have done SOMETHING.

Forge, I don't think it's a problem you brought it up. We're all adults and can have the conversation without talking about the politics behind it. I'm certainly not upset about anything that's been said! It's certainly got a lot more heated on here talking about, oh I don't know, Alex Smith.

 

 

[y2lamanaki]

10 hours ago, straighthate said:

J, my point is not about if he supports the president or Kaep or neither. My point is we have probably next to the strike shortened season, the biggest knock on ratings in NFL history. As a business owner, York had a responsibility to do what's best for his business and the league. I don't have a multi billion dollar business with employees paid in the millions so personally I don't have the answer to what the right call was. But I think if this whole National Anthem thing has cost the NFL and the Niners millions of dollars, then York and the NFL have not handled it well. Totally unrelated to who you agree with, but just financially speaking the whole thing has been a disaster. Also, in looking at the main parties..... Kap and other players who protested, 49ers, NFL, York, Goodell, fan base, more recently Trump, Jerry Jones, dude on the Steelers, etc, it's tough to find someone who has come out for the better because of the whole situation.  So as a businessman who has an obligation to his team (including Kap), his fan base, and the strength of the NFL, based on the fact none of them have come out for the better, I think York has failed miserably as the first owner that could have done SOMETHING.

Forge, I don't think it's a problem you brought it up. We're all adults and can have the conversation without talking about the politics behind it. I'm certainly not upset about anything that's been said! It's certainly got a lot more heated on here talking about, oh I don't know, Alex Smith.

 

 

An owner taking the opposite stand of York would just be boycott by the other side. The side they're taking is irrelevant to the matter of business. And simplifying the falling ratings down to being a result of the protests is short-sighted anyway. Ratings started to drop in 2015 before the protests began. This was always the trajectory of football. Young consumers have cut the cable cord, star players are either retiring (Peyton) or arbitrarily suspended (pick your poison), and the player health issues and hiding of the consequences of head trauma have ALL been shown to have had a negative impact on the NFL ratings. The national anthem stuff will pass and those protesting fans will return. Same as all those fans protesting the return of Michael Vick fell back in line. Those things aren't long-term problems like those other issues currently are.

Knowing that, Jed York made an excellent move to openly support his players as opposed to making himself the symbol of the opposition in the eyes of players. When it comes to free agency and getting players to re-sign, having a boss that will support you is far better than one who will not. And better players lead to better team records which leads to more fans ultimately watching. 

So I would say from a stinctly business standpoint, York made the best move.

[straighthate]

You're assuming all the players agreed with the protest then and wanted York to side with it and wanted the protests to go on.  There were plenty of stories about how Kap didn't have the locker room behind him but we'll never really know that. How divided did it make the team? We aren't in the locker room, so who knows. Maybe Jed did know, I'm not sure. But Jerry Jones took a stand last year with his team and we didn't see backlash or poor performance or a divided team. Public comments he's made this year have upset some for sure. 

You say having a boss that supports you is good, but once again, you're assuming the players wanted that to continue.  Wanted to be asked by every media member how they felt about the protest every single week.  Maybe a good portion of the team wanted to just talk about football.  I'd also say what employees really want is to just have a boss they respect. Is Bill Bellicheck the second best coach because he always has his players backs and supports their free speech?  No way, it's because he has the team's best interest at heart and he's tough on individuals so they respect him. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. But my point is look at the numbers, look where Kap is now, how empty our stadium and stadiums around the NFL are, and if you really think York helped Kap, the Niners, or the NFL, I really hope Jed never helps me.  

 

[J-ALL-DAY]

Okay so a couple of things. When you say did the players want to be asked about it every week? Well no, and in reality they weren't asked every week. Biggest misconception was how big of a distraction it was for the team. Literally after the first two weeks Kap took a knee it was talked about and maybe another week after he became a starter. After that no one was talking about the kneeling or the protest. 

What Jerry Jones did this year by drawing a hard line in the protest actually has made the players DECLINE media interviews. They know they are going to be asked about it so they rather not even fulfill their media requirements. So what exactly is worse? Having to deal with it for a few weeks or having it linger all season because of what your owner did? 

As for the empty stadium? That's because of the protests or because we have been the WORST team in football the last two years alongside the Browns? If we had a dominant perennial Super Bowl contender like we did during 2011-2013, do you really believe the stadium would be empty? 

And I'm sure not every player agreed with Kaepernick last year but it was reported that after the meeting they had, a lot of them became more understanding of why he did it and the message he was sending. I'm willing to bet majority of the players prefer a owner not telling them what to do then making a team policy of not kneeling or else face some severe consequences. 

Let me ask you this, if we were to poll lets say 100 non-49ers or Cowboys players on which owner's stance they prefer more, how do you see the voting going?

[straighthate]

The questions were asked all year. It was a topic all year. ESPN had their tracker on who was kneeling last year too. This year, same thing. Even more so once Trump opened his mouth, but it was an issue before that. 

As for Jerry Jones, as I said in my above post, once he made public comments this year yes, he became a distraction and has hurt his team. For sure. Last year he said the same stuff privately to his team and there were no issues. At all. 

As for the stadiums, once again, I said ours and throughout the NFL. Look at attendance numbers if you question that. Or Jersey sales. Or DIRECTV NFL ticket sales. Or listen to the fans booing the players during the national anthem. Look, I don't care if you like agree with the protests or not. Doesn't matter. But if even 10% of Americans don't like them and don't spend money on the NFL because of it, that's a huge financial hit to the NFL. We can agree on that, right?

As for after the meeting with Kap last year, for sure players said that. Wouldn't be PC or team first to say otherwise. People who oppose a protest outlined as opposing racism aren't going to want to talk about it publicly. On a side note I'll also say that Kap wasn't exactly a leader before that, so it's not like we're talking Tom Brady and the team will follow. So I think some players probably didn't follow just because Kap wasn't the guy to follow. 

And as for the last question, that's like asking do you want a coach who says we're gonna take a few days off or a coach that says we're gonna bust our butts harder than we ever have. Of course people are gonna say sweet, a few days off!  But when it comes down to it, most will side with furthering their career, winning, getting that next contract etc. So I think the players will make that choice. I don't think the Cowboys will have trouble getting FA if that's what you mean. Jerry Jones fights for his players like crazy. He just drew a line in the sand. 

And once again, I don't have the answer to what should have been done. Not saying Jones did the right thing. Just saying York did nothing and it's financially hurt his team, Kap, and the NFL so how could it have been the right thing?  Is Kap happy he's out of football? No way. And maybe York could have helped him make some other decisions or statements or something that he'd have a job right now. He certainly didn't help him further his career. 

[y2lamanaki]

1 hour ago, straighthate said:

You're assuming all the players agreed with the protest then and wanted York to side with it and wanted the protests to go on.  There were plenty of stories about how Kap didn't have the locker room behind him but we'll never really know that. How divided did it make the team? We aren't in the locker room, so who knows. Maybe Jed did know, I'm not sure. But Jerry Jones took a stand last year with his team and we didn't see backlash or poor performance or a divided team. Public comments he's made this year have upset some for sure. 

You say having a boss that supports you is good, but once again, you're assuming the players wanted that to continue.  Wanted to be asked by every media member how they felt about the protest every single week.  Maybe a good portion of the team wanted to just talk about football.  I'd also say what employees really want is to just have a boss they respect. Is Bill Bellicheck the second best coach because he always has his players backs and supports their free speech?  No way, it's because he has the team's best interest at heart and he's tough on individuals so they respect him. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. But my point is look at the numbers, look where Kap is now, how empty our stadium and stadiums around the NFL are, and if you really think York helped Kap, the Niners, or the NFL, I really hope Jed never helps me.  

 

1

I'm not assuming all the players agreed with the protest because that would be a wildly stupid assumption to suggest that 100% of a given group thinks the same way. I would not make an assumption that 100% of NFL players agreed on any singular thing. That said, from polls on the subject, I could easily expect a vast majority of NFL players to support or be indifferent toward the protests as opposed to being against said protests. 

We might not ever know whether or not Kaepernick had the locker room behind him, but we do know 100% that the locker room voted him the Len Eshmont Award winner, which does not seem like something a locker room not behind him would do. 

You keep accusing me of assuming what players want, but you are doing the exact same thing, only toward the reverse point - you are assuming that players are sick of the protests and wish to stop having to talk about it. You might want to look at polls on the subject and the diversity of the NFL and question if you really think this holds true. I would expect you might not.

And here's a look at the numbers. 

NFL Attendance: 

2012: 17,303,347
2013: 17,510,569
2014: 17,606,643
2015: 17,509,479
2016: 17,788,671

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/attendance.htm

In 2016, after the protests began, the NFL set a record for season attendance at games. This year, attendance is on pace to hit 17,924,752, topping last year's record. How clearly are you inspecting those 'empty' stadiums? 

[big9erfan]

DOn't know where else to put this so I'll try here ... did  we add Jerome back to our PS?  Hard to believe he could make game day roster and get a bunch of snaps and then not be promising enough to keep on the PS.  Oh wait, unless someone else signed him.

[Forge]

4 minutes ago, big9erfan said:

DOn't know where else to put this so I'll try here ... did  we add Jerome back to our PS?  Hard to believe he could make game day roster and get a bunch of snaps and then not be promising enough to keep on the PS.  Oh wait, unless someone else signed him.

Unclaimed off waivers. We haven't added him to the PS- we signed Jeremy Liggins instead. Jerome is just a FA

[y2lamanaki]

38 minutes ago, straighthate said:

As for the stadiums, once again, I said ours and throughout the NFL. Look at attendance numbers if you question that. Or Jersey sales. Or DIRECTV NFL ticket sales. Or listen to the fans booing the players during the national anthem. Look, I don't care if you like agree with the protests or not. Doesn't matter. But if even 10% of Americans don't like them and don't spend money on the NFL because of it, that's a huge financial hit to the NFL. We can agree on that, right?

I covered stadiums in a previous post. I can find nothing that details jersey sales (yet Kaepernick is still one of the best-selling players in the league despite not being on a team). Direct TV sales have been dropping for months as more and more consumers get rid of expensive cable and satellite packages (http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/att-q2-2017-earnings-directv-time-warner-1202506255/) and "fans booing" is completely anecdotal, and not really indicative of anything, because they still purchased the ticket with is contrary to your point. 

Honestly, I think your personal stance on the protests are causing you to believe things are much worse than they are for the NFL, and you're not looking at the larger contributing factors.

 

[big9erfan]

9 minutes ago, Forge said:

Unclaimed off waivers. We haven't added him to the PS- we signed Jeremy Liggins instead. Jerome is just a FA

Wow. From playing one week to out of the league the next week. Strange for a rookie who had so much preseason hype. Maybe that 4.8 forty finally came into play here. No amount of development was going to change that. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

1 hour ago, straighthate said:

The questions were asked all year. It was a topic all year. ESPN had their tracker on who was kneeling last year too. This year, same thing. Even more so once Trump opened his mouth, but it was an issue before that. 

As for Jerry Jones, as I said in my above post, once he made public comments this year yes, he became a distraction and has hurt his team. For sure. Last year he said the same stuff privately to his team and there were no issues. At all. 

As for the stadiums, once again, I said ours and throughout the NFL. Look at attendance numbers if you question that. Or Jersey sales. Or DIRECTV NFL ticket sales. Or listen to the fans booing the players during the national anthem. Look, I don't care if you like agree with the protests or not. Doesn't matter. But if even 10% of Americans don't like them and don't spend money on the NFL because of it, that's a huge financial hit to the NFL. We can agree on that, right?

As for after the meeting with Kap last year, for sure players said that. Wouldn't be PC or team first to say otherwise. People who oppose a protest outlined as opposing racism aren't going to want to talk about it publicly. On a side note I'll also say that Kap wasn't exactly a leader before that, so it's not like we're talking Tom Brady and the team will follow. So I think some players probably didn't follow just because Kap wasn't the guy to follow. 

And as for the last question, that's like asking do you want a coach who says we're gonna take a few days off or a coach that says we're gonna bust our butts harder than we ever have. Of course people are gonna say sweet, a few days off!  But when it comes down to it, most will side with furthering their career, winning, getting that next contract etc. So I think the players will make that choice. I don't think the Cowboys will have trouble getting FA if that's what you mean. Jerry Jones fights for his players like crazy. He just drew a line in the sand. 

And once again, I don't have the answer to what should have been done. Not saying Jones did the right thing. Just saying York did nothing and it's financially hurt his team, Kap, and the NFL so how could it have been the right thing?  Is Kap happy he's out of football? No way. And maybe York could have helped him make some other decisions or statements or something that he'd have a job right now. He certainly didn't help him further his career. 

He fights for his players like crazy when it benefits the team and HIMSELF. Jerry will sign a domestic abuser/rapist/murderer/etc on the drop of a dime as long as it makes the team better. So will the Cowboys have trouble signing FAs? Probably not, but that's because a player will always go where the money is and in some cases where the opportunity is. But if a player has a comparable offer from the Cowboys and another team, could that player turn down the Cowboys offer because of what Jerry has said/done lately? Possibly. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

52 minutes ago, big9erfan said:

Wow. From playing one week to out of the league the next week. Strange for a rookie who had so much preseason hype. Maybe that 4.8 forty finally came into play here. No amount of development was going to change that. 

Agreed. Strange, very strange. For a guy that made as much noise as he did in preseason, it was telling the team didn't even sign him to the PS. 

[straighthate]

52 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

I covered stadiums in a previous post. I can find nothing that details jersey sales (yet Kaepernick is still one of the best-selling players in the league despite not being on a team). Direct TV sales have been dropping for months as more and more consumers get rid of expensive cable and satellite packages (http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/att-q2-2017-earnings-directv-time-warner-1202506255/) and "fans booing" is completely anecdotal, and not really indicative of anything, because they still purchased the ticket with is contrary to your point. 

Honestly, I think your personal stance on the protests are causing you to believe things are much worse than they are for the NFL, and you're not looking at the larger contributing factors.

 

Come on now Y2, don't try to make it personal because you may not agree with me. I can say the same for you and your motivations, but as a mod if you don't want a conversation to get out of hand, don't start questioning the motivation for what I'm saying. Of course everyone has bias, but I've also supplied a number of arguments. No one has refuted Kaepernick is out of a job right? So did York hurt or help him?

The conversation is and should be specifically about how the owners, specifically how York has handled it since it was brought up about that (by another mod). The first linked article below is about the ratings.  The booing is a anecdotal for sure and yes they have bought tickets, but as I did this year, those tickets were bought a long time ago so not everyone feels strongly enough to waste what they paid. But at some point people stop buying tickets.

DIRECTV is giving refunds to those that don't want Ticket now.  That tells you something.  Also, the second linked article is not anecdotal and shows that the #1 reason fans are saying they tuned out were because of the protests.  This ESPN article is prior to the season and is in reference to last year.  I wouldn't expect that to be much different than last year.

More than happy to continue the conversation or cut it off, whatever you two mods prefer. By don't question if my belief on York is clouded because I don't agree with you.  The validity of my arguments and stats I'm providing stand on their own whether I agree or not with the protestors.  I'd ask that you stick to a conversation about the owners and not individuals' thoughts on the protest  

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/12/nfls-anthem-protests-may-be-starting-to-hit-foxs-bottom-line.html

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20171611/national-anthem-protests-no-1-reason-viewers-tuned-nfl-games