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Lets rally behind Heinicke


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1 hour ago, lavar703 said:

I would assume yes and they wanted to see if Alex could play. 

I agree with that and I’d add that Cam’s asking price I believe was too high in the beginning of free agency. It came down later on as he wasn’t being signed but by then they had guys to work with Dwayne, Kyle Allen & they liked the progress Alex Smith was showing.

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13 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I honestly don’t think that Alex can play 16 games

Nothing else needs to be said.  Cut him.

14 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

We have $40 million in cap space before FA even starts.

Cap space goes quick unless you want to back load the contracts.  Scherff 15M.  Jon Allen 15M.  Another top flight receiver 15M (curtis samuel is a tier below).  Darby 8M.  etc

Then what happens when Alex Smith gets us to 7 wins, we get another middle of the draft pick and finally have to pay a qb?  We need cap space if we are going to have to pay a qb.  You know, like a qb who can play 16 games, has 2 legs and is in his prime, not limping into the door everyday.  Plus we got to budget 15M/year on extending our defensive players (Allen, Payne, Sweat, Young) every year. 

I can't believe how many people are willing to pay so much for mediocrity.  I will never understand.

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13 minutes ago, offbyone said:

Nothing else needs to be said.  Cut him.

Cap space goes quick unless you want to back load the contracts.  Scherff 15M.  Jon Allen 15M.  Another top flight receiver 15M (curtis samuel is a tier below).  Darby 8M.  etc

Then what happens when Alex Smith gets us to 7 wins, we get another middle of the draft pick and finally have to pay a qb?  We need cap space if we are going to have to pay a qb.  You know, like a qb who can play 16 games, has 2 legs and is in his prime, not limping into the door everyday.  Plus we got to budget 15M/year on extending our defensive players (Allen, Payne, Sweat, Young) every year. 

I can't believe how many people are willing to pay so much for mediocrity.  I will never understand.

Alex is 11-5 as our starter and led us to the playoffs this year & would have in 2018 if he hadn’t gotten hurt, is that mediocrity?

9 of last seasons loses weren’t in games that Alex started. Those were on Dwayne Haskins, Kyle Allen & Taylor Heinicke.

We were 5-1 w/ Alex starting last year.
 

No offense but you obviously don’t know how contracts are structured if you think that giving a player a new contract that his cap hit in the first year is high, it’s not.

The first year they get a lot of their guaranteed money & all of their signing bonus which is prorated out over several years. 
 

The cap hits aren’t large in the first year of the contracts.

Go look up any huge contract for any player and they’re all structured the same. The first year is usually half or more than half of what the average salary will be over the life of the contract.

Go look up Kendall Fuller’s contract.

Go look up Zach Martin’s contract.

etc, etc
 

 

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3 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Alex is 11-5 as our starter and led us to the playoffs this year & would have in 2018 if he hadn’t gotten hurt, is that mediocrity?

9 of last seasons loses weren’t in games that Alex started. Those were on Dwayne Haskins, Kyle Allen & Taylor Heinicke.

We were 5-1 w/ Alex starting last year.
 

No offense but you obviously don’t know how contracts are structured if you think that giving a player a new contract that his cap hit in the first year is high, it’s not.

The first year they get a lot of their guaranteed money & all of their signing bonus which is prorated out over several years. 
 

The cap hits aren’t large in the first year of the contracts.

Go look up any huge contract for any player and they’re all structured the same. The first year is usually half or more than half of what the average salary will be over the life of the contract.

Go look up Kendall Fuller’s contract.

Go look up Zach Martin’s contract.

etc, etc
 

 

First of all, you say that like Alex Smith finished a 16 game season for us.  Don't cherry pick stats.  Did we even have a winning season with him?  No.  Did he win a play off game?  No, he couldn't even stay healthy to play in it.  Wins don't mean Alex Smith is the reason. 

Anyways, I can't convince you this.  The way you defend him and want to pay him, one can only assume you clearly think Alex Smith is a top flight qb.  I think he is below average at best.  We are too far away to find common ground.  

Contracts can be structured every which way.  Sure backloading is common, but when you look at our roster and see how many elite players we will have to resign you need to be careful playing that game.  

Yes last year we only took a 4 million dollar cap hit for Kendall Fuller.  He was basically free.  So how does that work....Well this season his cap hit will be 13 million.  That is the math.  Now with Fuller not such a big deal because his average salary is 10 million a year.  But when you play that game with a contract that is 15 million a year, you get yourself into cap hell really quick.  

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1 hour ago, offbyone said:

First of all, you say that like Alex Smith finished a 16 game season for us.  Don't cherry pick stats.  Did we even have a winning season with him?  No.  Did he win a play off game?  No, he couldn't even stay healthy to play in it.  Wins don't mean Alex Smith is the reason. 

Anyways, I can't convince you this.  The way you defend him and want to pay him, one can only assume you clearly think Alex Smith is a top flight qb.  I think he is below average at best.  We are too far away to find common ground.  

Contracts can be structured every which way.  Sure backloading is common, but when you look at our roster and see how many elite players we will have to resign you need to be careful playing that game.  

Yes last year we only took a 4 million dollar cap hit for Kendall Fuller.  He was basically free.  So how does that work....Well this season his cap hit will be 13 million.  That is the math.  Now with Fuller not such a big deal because his average salary is 10 million a year.  But when you play that game with a contract that is 15 million a year, you get yourself into cap hell really quick.  

If we’re truly being honest not only do I believe that Alex wouldn’t start 16 games but I don’t believe Kyle Allen would coming off his injury, Taylor Heinicke wouldn’t as he’s gotten hurt in every game he’s seen extensive time in his NFL career (he may be Colt McCoy 2.0). I don’t believe Cam Newton would play 16 games as he usually doesn’t. If we traded for Stafford I don’t believe would stay healthy for 16 games bc he hardly has ever and I’d question if we somehow were able to sign Dak Prescott that he may not play all 16 games bc like Allen he’s coming off a major ankle injury.
 

Sure contracts can be structured different ways but do you honestly believe they’ll do that?

It would make no sense to front load contracts in this offseason where for the first time in salary cap history the cap is not growing its shrinking. Teams don’t do that anyways. Also, in the upcoming years as Terry, Montez Sweat & Chase Young come up for contract extensions we’ll be moving on from Alex Smith’s contract and Landon Collins’s contract plus, the cap will probably continue to go up again after this year of it shrinking.

 

Edited by turtle28
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47 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

If we’re truly being honest not only do I believe that Alex wouldn’t start 16 games but I don’t believe Kyle Allen would coming off his injury, Taylor Heinicke wouldn’t as he’s gotten hurt in every game he’s seen extensive time in his NFL career (he may be Colt McCoy 2.0). I don’t believe Cam Newton would play 16 games as he usually doesn’t. If we traded for Stafford I don’t believe would stay healthy for 16 games bc he hardly has ever and I’d question if we somehow were able to sign Dak Prescott that he may not play all 16 games bc like Allen he’s coming off a major ankle injury.

You are honestly answering these questions, but that is what gets me.  If you don't think he can play a full season then why even consider keeping him?  If you feel the same way about Allen, Heinicke, then we need another solution.  There are lots of possibilities.  Carr, Darnold, Winston, Taysom Hill, Matt Ryan, Prescott, Wentz, etc.  We shouldn't both settle and shell out a ton of cap space for that option.  

50 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Sure contracts can be structured different ways but do you honestly believe they’ll do that?

It would make no sense to front load contracts in this offseason where for the first time in salary cap history the cap is not growing its shrinking. Teams don’t do that anyways. Also, in the upcoming years as Terry, Montez Sweat & Chase Young come up for contract extensions we’ll be moving on from Alex Smith’s contract and Landon Collins’s contract plus, the cap will probably continue to go up again after this year of it shrinking.

I was responding to the example you gave of how we structure contracts- Kendall Fuller.  

The cap shrinking is a consideration but it is more about our own situation in context of it.  If we have lots of cap space as you suggested, then we should absolutely try to front load or at least spread the contract out evenly.  The reason is playing pool.  You need to think two shots ahead and we know we have to sign one top talent every year on the dline.  I have to believe they are smarter than us and recognize the contracts they will be wanting to sign in the future.  I would think they project all this out.  So I sure hope they do that.

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You simply cannot go into next season with an anchor around your neck. They have to be done with Alex. He can’t play a full 16-games and we all know it. I understand he wants to continue playing but we can’t be the team that allows this to go on. He needs to retire. You cannot pay him $24M next season to be on this roster. The only way I want him around is if they take Lance or move up for him. 

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19 minutes ago, offbyone said:

You are honestly answering these questions, but that is what gets me.  If you don't think he can play a full season then why even consider keeping him?  If you feel the same way about Allen, Heinicke, then we need another solution.  There are lots of possibilities.  Carr, Darnold, Winston, Taysom Hill, Matt Ryan, Prescott, Wentz, etc.  We shouldn't both settle and shell out a ton of cap space for that option.  

I was responding to the example you gave of how we structure contracts- Kendall Fuller.  

The cap shrinking is a consideration but it is more about our own situation in context of it.  If we have lots of cap space as you suggested, then we should absolutely try to front load or at least spread the contract out evenly.  The reason is playing pool.  You need to think two shots ahead and we know we have to sign one top talent every year on the dline.  I have to believe they are smarter than us and recognize the contracts they will be wanting to sign in the future.  I would think they project all this out.  So I sure hope they do that.

The main reason I don’t want Alex cut is because of more emotional than anything else. He’s overcome so much that I just feel like he’s continued to deserve the chance to play if he wants to continue to compete for the starting job.

I admire you for being able to compartmentalize and separate the business side of football from the emotional side of what Alex Smith has done and overcome and can continue to do as he plays, but I can’t and I question if Rivera will be able to also. I think Rivera will want Alex back if Alex wants to come back and play and I think it’s pretty clear Alex does.

I want to see what Allen & Heinicke can develop into, they’ve both shown flashes. Maybe that’s the wrong way of looking at things but I’m intrigued & I think it’s obvious that Rivera & Turner are too. One way to look at it is I f they keep those two QBs then they don’t need to spend a draft pick on a QB this year and can draft other positions to continue to make the roster better this year while they develop Allen & Henikie to maybe be the next QB.
 

As for the others, we can cross those roads when we get to them, as of right now guys like Carr, Dak, Stafford, Matt Ryan, Wentz and Darnold aren’t available yet and I don’t really want to trade for them either beyond me still being tied emotionally to Alex Smith on top of all that. 
 

Jameis Winston could be an answer if the Saints chose to re-sign Hill and not him, but I’m not sure if I want the former version of Haskins before we drafted Haskins. Maybe Jameis has matured a lot this year but I’ve always been turned off by his immaturity and I would think that Rivera would be too.
 

I don’t want a QB like Taysom Hill. That’s not my idea of what I want in a QB, he’s a running back that throws and I’m not interested.

 

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36 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

The main reason I don’t want Alex cut is because of more emotional than anything else. He’s overcome so much that I just feel like he’s continued to deserve the chance to play if he wants to continue to compete for the starting job.

I admire you for being able to compartmentalize and separate the business side of football from the emotional side of what Alex Smith has done and overcome and can continue to do as he plays, but I can’t and I question if Rivera will be able to also. I think Rivera will want Alex back if Alex wants to come back and play and I think it’s pretty clear Alex does.

I get emotionally attached to players too.  But Alex Smith is not a WFT guy.  He is a mercenary.  He was a pure business move.  He was purchased not developed here.  When that is the situation you have to analyze the value first.  We traded for him at the end of his career and gave up a 3rd round pick plus a starting corner and then a boat load of cap space.  You cherry picked the numbers to say he is 11-5.  I could just as easily cherry pick to say he is 11-48 since he has been here.  We did not get our money's worth out of him.  Throwing more good money after bad is how organizations get stuck in the land of average. 

Time to move on.  If he wants to play I am sure he will get an opportunity elsewhere.  And if you are rooting for him, consider that this might be the best situation for him as he will get to pick the situation that is best for him.

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1 hour ago, lavar703 said:

You simply cannot go into next season with an anchor around your neck. They have to be done with Alex. He can’t play a full 16-games and we all know it. I understand he wants to continue playing but we can’t be the team that allows this to go on. He needs to retire. You cannot pay him $24M next season to be on this roster. The only way I want him around is if they take Lance or move up for him. 

I think Alex can be a bridge to our next QB, that’s a great reason to keep him and Rivera knows Alex’s value in that way. Alex has been bridges before and it’s worked out.

The $24 million cap hit is not as big of a hit as people think. Alex somehow someway has delivered 11 wins & only 5 losses in a Washington uniform. 
 

He was 5-1 as a starter last year. 
 

I don’t think he will stay healthy for 16 games but I don’t think a lot of our options we may sign or trade for will stay healthy For all 16 games on top of Allen coming back from his ankle injury & Heinike has gotten hurt in every game he’s played more than one half of football.

So, it’s a question if Heinicke can stay healthy too.

I mean Stafford is injury prone, Cam has battled injuries in 2 or his last 3 seasons he’s started. Just like Allen, Dak if we signed him is coming off a serious ankle injury and if we traded for Sam Darnold of the Jets get Watson, Sam is injury prone too.

Why should Alex maybe missing a few games a season bc his leg might get banged up be any different than those guys’ injury histories?

Edited by turtle28
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31 minutes ago, offbyone said:

I get emotionally attached to players too.  But Alex Smith is not a WFT guy.  He is a mercenary.  He was a pure business move.  He was purchased not developed here.  When that is the situation you have to analyze the value first.  We traded for him at the end of his career and gave up a 3rd round pick plus a starting corner and then a boat load of cap space.  You cherry picked the numbers to say he is 11-5.  I could just as easily cherry pick to say he is 11-48 since he has been here.  We did not get our money's worth out of him.  Throwing more good money after bad is how organizations get stuck in the land of average. 

Time to move on.  If he wants to play I am sure he will get an opportunity elsewhere.  And if you are rooting for him, consider that this might be the best situation for him as he will get to pick the situation that is best for him.

I get that that’s your opinion but the only person that can answer this is Rivera.

I can have my opinion that Rivera won’t move on from Alex if Alex wants to continue to play and you, Lavar and whoever else can think they either have to cut Alex and move on or that Rivera will want to.

I’m not so sure of that and unless you’ve talked to Rivera personally and he’s told you he’s going to cut Alex, sign or trade for some other vet, draft Alex’s replacement or move forward with Allen, Heinicke & a Draft pick were all just throwing around our personal opinions here.

My personal feeling is that Rivera won’t cut Alex, although he did say he felt that Kyle Allen could’ve lead them to the playoffs just the same - which I don’t believe but Rivera said it - which could be a tell right there. But, it’s anyone’s guess.

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Great interview by the Junkies with Brady Quinn on Taylor Heinicke, Washington’s options at the QB position and talked about Haskins too, etc.

He’s not ready to anoint Heinicke but did like what he showed but obviously wouldn’t endorse him as the answer after just one game.

He said he thinks what’s best for us next year is to go with a veteran QB.

One thing that perked my interest is he said that Mac Jones is the only other QB in the draft besides Trevor Lawrence who anticipates throws regularly and already well enough from the pocket that’s  that’s obviously before Jones even getting to the NFL level and developing more.
 

So, it seemed to me that taking Mac Jones at 19 would be a good move - if we decide to draft a QB high - and then have him develop behind whoever our starter is for a year or 2.

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2 hours ago, ARTMONK HOF said:

I know most of you don’t care but just for some information. Pittsburgh has signed Dwayne Haskins. 

I’m amazed by how many people predicted this, I was 100% wrong. I never thought the Steelers would sign the immature Haskins. I sure hope it works for him there, Tomlin is demanding but understanding with players. I wish him the best. If Haskins can’t make it there, he’ll likely be out of the league and in the XFL in 2022.

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