What to do at QB?

[jsthomp2007]

3 hours ago, bMiller031 said:

McCarthey is such a dope I wonder if DAL could look to retain Moore via promotion, a la Dirk Koetter/Lovie Smith in TB.

Let's hope that the Cowboys keep winning and McCarthey gets the credit for it, so that Moore can be expendable to the Cowboys. 

[bMiller031]

 

[AnAngryAmerican]

On 10/20/2021 at 1:48 PM, bMiller031 said:

 

That’s fine. I want Russ or Aaron. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by AnAngryAmerican

[broncosfan_101]

I posted a while ago about how drafting a QB to be a cornerstone of a rebuild seems far from ideal. Regarding that, I present to you: the Chicago Bears. The team will be replacing their coach/GM shortly, and now they’ve handcuffed themselves into only options who believe in Justin Fields as their QBOTF. They could certainly still find guys who will do a great job! But the longer the list of options you can give yourself, the better. And that’s not the situation the Bears have put themselves in. 
 

I wonder if the exact situation that is happening in Chicago is why Paton didn’t seriously consider drafting a QB. I’d bet on it, personally.

[1234567]

9 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

I posted a while ago about how drafting a QB to be a cornerstone of a rebuild seems far from ideal. Regarding that, I present to you: the Chicago Bears. The team will be replacing their coach/GM shortly, and now they’ve handcuffed themselves into only options who believe in Justin Fields as their QBOTF. They could certainly still find guys who will do a great job! But the longer the list of options you can give yourself, the better. And that’s not the situation the Bears have put themselves in. 
 

I wonder if the exact situation that is happening in Chicago is why Paton didn’t seriously consider drafting a QB. I’d bet on it, personally.

That’s a really interesting point, and one I hadn’t thought of. Paton may have been as skeptical of Fangio/Shurmur as the rest of us. I mean at some point you do have to find your QBOTF, but if you think you might be firing your head coach and offensive coordinator in a year, why get tied down with their pick. 

[big_palooka]

14 hours ago, 1234567 said:

That’s a really interesting point, and one I hadn’t thought of. Paton may have been as skeptical of Fangio/Shurmur as the rest of us. I mean at some point you do have to find your QBOTF, but if you think you might be firing your head coach and offensive coordinator in a year, why get tied down with their pick. 

Then shouldn't the GM make that known upfront vs pissing away a year? I don't know the logistics, but pairing a new GM with an incumbent HC seems to alway end poorly. Why'd they do that to start with?

I don't think this had anything to do with not drafting a QB. I think they were naive enough to think they could win with a game manager in Teddy behind a strong defense. And felt Lock was "still developing" so no need to bring in another rookie signal caller. 

[broncos67]

36 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Then shouldn't the GM make that known upfront vs pissing away a year? I don't know the logistics, but pairing a new GM with an incumbent HC seems to alway end poorly. Why'd they do that to start with?

I don't think this had anything to do with not drafting a QB. I think they were naive enough to think they could win with a game manager in Teddy behind a strong defense. And felt Lock was "still developing" so no need to bring in another rookie signal caller. 

Eh, I don't know. I think Paton valued the job and the organization personally. Denver is still an incredibly attractive landing spot league-wide. He knew there was a lame duck year for the coach, and the ownership mess would get handled shortly. I agree it's been done backwards, but I'll say this. If Paton was inclined to give Fangio a prove it year with a different QB that isn't a long-term commitment, then that's exactly what he did without mortgaging future flexibility. Then he can move on if it doesn't work out and start fresh. If we didn't like the HC carousel last year OR it was too messy with the ownership situation, our approach this offseason makes sense. It's a wasted year in a sense, but it also meant we didn't draft a QB in the last draft that a new coach would be tethered to. It would be the inverse of the current situation.

[bMiller031]

Some good news, we are down to 1.12 in the draft.  With a loss to WAS this week we will drop another spot + SEA, SF, NE, PHI, (NYG?) are likely to pass us shortly after. 
 

http://www.tankathon.com/nfl

[broncosfan_101]

1 hour ago, bMiller031 said:

Some good news, we are down to 1.12 in the draft.  With a loss to WAS this week we will drop another spot + SEA, SF, NE, PHI, (NYG?) are likely to pass us shortly after. 
 

http://www.tankathon.com/nfl

PHI/NYG/WFT have 5 games amongst each other yet. That’s lovely. 

[Broncofan]

I posted it in the Week 7 GDT thread, but guess it belongs here - if we think Paton will follow his experience with MIN, then I truly believe he's going to go after Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers hard.     The good news is that either way, getting stronger draft capital helps in the trade market, so there's a silver lining to our October collapse. 

 

 

In the Spielman MIN era in 2006-2012 pre-GM and his GM era from 2012-present, we did see them draft QB's in Rd1 - but only when a vet option wasn't available.  They signed Brett Favre to be the guy in 2009-10.   When Teddy B went down, they went with the ill-fated Sam Bradford stop-gap trade (thinking they were close to contention) - and then went hard after Kirk Cousins.   Their Rd1 track record wasn't great, as they whiffed hard on Christian Ponder & then didn't get the guy Teddy Bridgewater (late Rd1, so different expectations, he wasn't a total miss, but he wasn't the answer, either).

Instead of concluding that DEN would be interested in Cousins,  I think the more compelling argument would be that Paton would value going after an A-Rod/Wilson level vet QB - the top guy available at the time.    Cousins was by FAR the best QB available, it wasn't even close (remember all those "I'd rather have Case Keenum at 18M AAV than Kirk Cousins at 25M AAV" debates?   Good times).   Same for Favre in 2009-10 - back then, you just didn't see QB's move and become available.     Obviously both were FA's, so there's that distinction - but in both years, Spielman went after the top impact guy.   

If Paton's sticking to the MIN MO, I'd say ARod / Wilson is most likely the QB they're going after.   Everything says it's just a matter of when, not if, Watson goes to MIA (assuming his legal issues don't block that).   So that leaves A-Rod/Wilson next offseason.   Most likely, they'll go with a HC selection that would make it attractive for either guy (because both have input on where they go - Wilson has a full no-trade clause, and A-Rod built in power with the latest holdout / agreement to return).   One of Wilson's biggest reasons for wanting out of SEA is he and HC Pete Carroll don't see eye to eye on the O philosophy (and SEA stubbornly keeps siding with Carroll).   I have no idea who that HC is, but I think it's pretty clear if either top-level QB is available (and the way things are going in SEA, it looks like both will be), if we think Paton is using his MIN experience to guide him, then Paton will be all in on A-Rod/Wilson over an iffy Rd1 draft class (especialy given the Ponder experience he witnessed firsthand, and to a lesser extent, Bridgewater).

And while we know Klis is the org mouthpiece, this is noteworthy - I agree with Renck in general that Wilson/A-Rod are better than 2022 Rd1 QB's who would be in our range (I think there's a reason why the Tua rumors got shot down quickly, too), it's just interesting he was quick to point this direction out:

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Broncofan

[BroncosFan2010]

Looks a lot like the guy we missed on is Mac Jones rather than Fields. 

Justin has been impressively bad so far. Like, you cant judge a young guy on a few games but not many QB's play this bad at any time and end up being good long term. 

His play against TB was a full blown embarrassment. Even with his bad OL taken into account, he was an embarrassment. 

[big_palooka]

15 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Looks a lot like the guy we missed on is Mac Jones rather than Fields. 

Justin has been impressively bad so far. Like, you cant judge a young guy on a few games but not many QB's play this bad at any time and end up being good long term. 

His play against TB was a full blown embarrassment. Even with his bad OL taken into account, he was an embarrassment. 

I'm a fields guy and he's been terrible. But to some of your points. That's what happens when you pair a rookie QB with lame duck HC. Nagy is arguably worse than Fangio. 

The Bears are insanely mismanaged. Went all in that Mack trade with no plan at QB. Now you have Mack on a regressing defense and no offense. It all went bad for them.

[Broncofan]

26 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Looks a lot like the guy we missed on is Mac Jones rather than Fields. 

Justin has been impressively bad so far. Like, you cant judge a young guy on a few games but not many QB's play this bad at any time and end up being good long term. 

His play against TB was a full blown embarrassment. Even with his bad OL taken into account, he was an embarrassment. 

Fields, Lance and to a lesser extent, Zach Wilson - all needed time to develop their skills.   Lance & Fields needed the Mahomes year-of-prep to succeed.

The big thing about Fields, though - is how bad Nagy & co. are in helping him (or any QB) succeed.    They've done literally nothing to help him.   No rollouts, no bootlegs.   No RPO (and that's understandable if this was unexpected - but Nagy & co. said they have been building a Fields playbook since they drafted him).   Just straight drop-backs.   And they don't even design any runs, to use Fields' skills there.    

Worse yet is that Nagy, given a bottom 10 OL, and a rookie QB - is calling for route trees that take 5-7 step drop AND slow development.   The stat below doesn't lie. 
 

And it's not even just Fields - when lead-footed Nick Foles was in there, Nagy did the exact same thing - the MNF slaughterhouse show with Foles as QB vs. the Rams is where this became painfully obvious.   Still, a year later, it's still happening.
 

 

Finally, Nagy & co. are so bad - they can't even give on-field advice.

 

Not once, but 2x in 2 weeks.   As bad as Fangio/Shurmur are, Nagy & co. are probably far, far worse (and to be clear, neither deserves to keep their job - just they are that bad).  To be clear, though - Fields isn't ready to succeed on his own.   Which is what is happening right now, because that CHI HC / OC & scheme are even far worse than ours - not only did they not adjust with Fields taking over, they couldn't adjust any way when Foles took over for Trubisky mobility-wise.    Now that Adam Gase is gone, Nagy definitely takes over the "worst HC around" title.

 

Now to be fair to Paton - he probably knew the reports which said Fields (or Lance or Wilson) weren't ready, which made 2021 a throwaway year.   THAT IMO is the key issue, but it's pretty clear that's the mandate he was given.   The real Q isn't whether we go new QB or not - it's whether Paton dives into a much weaker rookie QB class, or goes vet - and what HC/OC combo he brings in to make it all work.

 

As for Mac Jones - he's definitely the most polished one outside of Trevor Lawrence.  And BB is one of the better HC's (duh) to have around (GM, different story).   So we see the difference.     For all the rookies, though - this time next year, we can start to get a much better feel on whether they were the right guys (assuming CHI hires someone who knows what they are doing).   Year 1 for pretty much every rookie is a throwaway - the Watson & Herberts of the world spoil us.   Remember, Josh Allen looked like a complete lost cause even at the end of year 1 (not saying Fields is that guy, but the need to develop year 1 is almost universal).

IMO, for Paton to wipe away the Q's - get Russell Wilson/Aaron Rodgers, ppl forget he passed on QB in 2021.    If he reaches for a QB in 2022 who doesn't work out, in a class that looks far inferior, well the clamor starts up again.   

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Broncofan

[AnAngryAmerican]

33 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Looks a lot like the guy we missed on is Mac Jones rather than Fields. 

Justin has been impressively bad so far. Like, you cant judge a young guy on a few games but not many QB's play this bad at any time and end up being good long term. 

His play against TB was a full blown embarrassment. Even with his bad OL taken into account, he was an embarrassment. 

I’m not going to argue on Fields, who has been atrocious, but also was more of a project.

I also said in the run up to the draft, and this has been proven, that Jones to New England was a perfect fit. He was already familiar with how the Patriots operate given that he played his college ball for BB’s best friend and Mac’s offense is a perfect fit for his skill set. While there is no way to prove this, I made a point - and I wasn’t alone - that New England was not only the best place for Jones to succeed but perhaps the only place he would. 

[bMiller031]

5 hours ago, Broncofan said:

I posted it in the Week 7 GDT thread, but guess it belongs here - if we think Paton will follow his experience with MIN, then I truly believe he's going to go after Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers hard.     The good news is that either way, getting stronger draft capital helps in the trade market, so there's a silver lining to our October collapse. 

Fastest way for Paton to establish job security too, btw.