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BDL Discussion Thread 2021


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2 minutes ago, bcb1213 said:

Taysom Hill, Kyle van noy, Fred Warner, ziggy ansah, Michael Davis

 

Depending on how far back you want to go you run into guys like Steve Young and Jim McMahon 

I assumed he meant from this year's team, which is still an abysmal attempt to prop up Zach Wilson but makes more sense.

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Just now, Blue said:

I assumed he meant from this year's team, which is still an abysmal attempt to prop up Zach Wilson but makes more sense.

To his point. Most of the best nfl qb didn't have nfl talent to throw to in college (there are exceptions, dont @ me) 

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QBs we’ve seen start Super Bowls since 2010

Joe Flacco, Colin Kapernick, Jimmy Garoppollo, Jared Goff, Nick Foles, Peyton Manning (2015 year specifically), Eli Manning

There are number one overall picks on this list but all these guys eventually faced criticism from the teams they went to the SB with. Additionally you can make a case none of these guys were the general difference maker and/or the best players on their roster. They all won anyway.

Why? Great coaching, loaded rosters, great defense.

With all that being acknowledged, does a guy have to be as good as Trevor Lawrence for a team to have a strong 3-5 year run? Not even close.

Can you win with one of these younger QBs and they don’t blossom into super stars? Yes

Does a QB have to be a ten year starter to suffice as a great first round pick? No.

 Practical example: Would people consider Jared Goff’s time with the Rams a failure? I wouldn’t. He wasn’t always a high level guy but they won consistently (Great talent and coaching) and undoubtedly more then before he arrived. Earned a second deal and is financially accomplished. He might not be John Elway or future HoF but Goff has already had a successful career. It’s better then 95% of what other QBs would dream for. 
 

In conclusion: Unless we’re going to compare everyone to Mahomes or Lawrence, these guys are good enough and they’ll probably have success early in their career. If they get talent around them they may have great records and not be the top reason for the teams success. Not everyone can have it all.

Edited by MD4L
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13 minutes ago, MD4L said:

Also from most of that argument Blue outlined it looks like NFL GMs and evaluators are gonna have to do the unthinkable....

 They will have to.... give them additional talent for them to succeed. What an unprecedented situation. 

Are you happy I gave Lawrence additional talent in the draft? 

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MD4L, I'm gonna be honest. You lost my attention when you lumped career journeyman Nick Foles in with Peyton and Eli Manning. Three of the seven guys you mentioned didn't win the Super Bowl, and two of the other four only got there because of what a different quarterback did in the regular season.

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11 minutes ago, Blue said:

If you want to ignore that all of those quarterbacks failed in the NFL for the exact same reasons, sure. Continue to be wrong on high picks at QB at your leisure.

Haskins off-field situation is what killed him in Washington. On field despite a NFL skill set he was a major check down guy and did not take enough opportunities to aggressively challenge defenses downfield. This directly contradicts the evaluation report on Fields.

Oh yeah:

Dwayne Haskins 40: 5.04 (wow)

Justin Fields 40: 4.41.

But sure, they are super similar prospects.

 

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Just now, MD4L said:

Haskins off-field situation is what killed him in Washington. On field despite a NFL skill set he was a major check down guy and did not take enough opportunities to aggressively challenge defenses downfield. This directly contradicts the evaluation report on Fields.

Oh yeah:

Dwayne Haskins 40: 5.04 (wow)

Justin Fields 40: 4.41.

But sure, they are super similar prospects.

 

Haskins couldn't read the field if you printed it out as a children's coloring book. This is a consistent, well-known trend with quarterbacks in Meyer's offensive system dating back to at least Alex Smith. Just because Haskins had other flaws does not invalidate the flaws he shared with other Meyer system QBs.

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3 minutes ago, Blue said:

MD4L, I'm gonna be honest. You lost my attention when you lumped career journeyman Nick Foles in with Peyton and Eli Manning. Three of the seven guys you mentioned didn't win the Super Bowl, and two of the other four only got there because of what a different quarterback did in the regular season.

Peyton Manning is a hall of famer. One of the best QBs of all time. In 2015 though, he was the biggest question mark on the Broncos Super Bowl winning roster.

And the fact that backup QBs have led their teams far is a testament to the fact that it’s really not inconceivable to see an average QB go on a super Bowl run.

The difference between SB winner/runner up is not as big of a difference between the runner up and 8-8 teams. Why we keep acting like you need to be Aaron Rodgers or a top 3 player at the position to suffice being a first round pick is nonsense.

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1 minute ago, Blue said:

Haskins couldn't read the field if you printed it out as a children's coloring book. This is a consistent, well-known trend with quarterbacks in Meyer's offensive system dating back to at least Alex Smith. Just because Haskins had other flaws does not invalidate the flaws he shared with other Meyer system QBs.

Again, Fields didn’t play in Meyers system. Why is Fields being mentioned with anything to do regarding Urban Meyer?

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7 minutes ago, Blue said:

MD4L, I'm gonna be honest. You lost my attention when you lumped Super Bowl MVP and Giant member haver Nick Foles in with Peyton and Eli Manning. Three of the seven guys you mentioned didn't win the Super Bowl, and two of the other four only got there because of what a different quarterback did in the regular season.

Fixed 😁

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Just now, MD4L said:

Peyton Manning is a hall of famer. One of the best QBs of all time. In 2015 though, he was the biggest question mark on the Broncos Super Bowl winning roster.

And the fact that backup QBs have led their teams far is a testament to the fact that it’s really not inconceivable to see an average QB go on a super Bowl run.

The difference between SB winner/runner up is not as big of a difference between the runner up and 8-8 teams. Why we keep acting like you need to be Aaron Rodgers or a top 3 player at the position to suffice being a first round pick is nonsense.

And Eli Manning was, at his best, a fringe top-10 player at his position. You'd take either of those players over Nick Foles at any point in their respective careers without a second thought.

It is because neither of them did across a full season and in fact failed miserably to even notch a winning record as full-time starters. The guy who carries the baton for the last leg of a marathon doesn't get to take credit for winning the whole thing by himself.

What a ******* joke. Look at the track records of teams that lose the Super Bowl over the past twenty years. A lot of those teams don't even make the playoffs the following season. The losing team in a Super Bowl is almost always closer to 8-8 than a contender. All that shows is that all it takes is one good year and some injury luck for many teams to go on a run. You can't sustain long-term success with an average quarterback, and that should be the goal for the vast majority of teams.

Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said a guy needs to be a top-3 player to be worth a first-round pick.

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Peyton Manning’s 2015 stats 

10 games: 9 TDs, 17 INTs, 6.8 YPA, 59% completion

Yes, I am undoubtedly justified putting 2015 Peyton Manning that list of QBs.

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1 minute ago, Blue said:

This is a joke, right

I’d say you’ll eat crow on this but you’re still willing to tell people Kyler Murray hasn’t been a solid starter in Arizona. 

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