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Where would you rank Jonathan Taylor?


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On 1/13/2021 at 3:24 PM, diamondbull424 said:

He’s proven at this point he’s not simply a recipient of the Lamar effect considering he’s achieving this production against 9 and sometimes 10 man boxes.

Not commenting on the rest of the post (or even really how Edwards is independent of Lamar/the Ravens offense), but those two things aren’t related. The stacked boxes are exactly what most teams would do to try to mitigate Lamar. The bigger issue in defending an offense like Baltimore’s is that the defenders have so much hesitancy. If they attack and guess wrong, they get gashed. If they stay home, Baltimore beats them to the spot. Jackson and Edwards in the backfield...we don’t have to guess who the defense is keying on/more worried about. It’s a pick your poison. 

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that teams that use their mobile QBs in the run game traditionally have strong performances from their running backs too. 2020 NE, most Panthers teams with Cam, the Tebow offense, etc.

Again not making any statements on Edwards - he seems like a very good player whenever I see him play. But QBs who get used in the run (that are any good) 100% help their backs and I think there’s a solid history of home run-threat QBs (running the ball) also having RBs that do well alongside them.

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1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

Not commenting on the rest of the post (or even really how Edwards is independent of Lamar/the Ravens offense), but those two things aren’t related. The stacked boxes are exactly what most teams would do to try to mitigate Lamar. The bigger issue in defending an offense like Baltimore’s is that the defenders have so much hesitancy. If they attack and guess wrong, they get gashed. If they stay home, Baltimore beats them to the spot. Jackson and Edwards in the backfield...we don’t have to guess who the defense is keying on/more worried about. It’s a pick your poison. 

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that teams that use their mobile QBs in the run game traditionally have strong performances from their running backs too. 2020 NE, most Panthers teams with Cam, the Tebow offense, etc.

Again not making any statements on Edwards - he seems like a very good player whenever I see him play. But QBs who get used in the run (that are any good) 100% help their backs and I think there’s a solid history of home run-threat QBs (running the ball) also having RBs that do well alongside them.

TL;WR- I agree with what you point out. Though I think the context described below means that our runners would be similarly productive in any good/quality offense.

——
Agreed. Though to clarify, when I say a recipient of the ‘Lamar effect’ I strictly mean that, he’s not a product of Lamar. As a rookie, I felt there was a possibility that you plug any back in that spot and they’re getting easy buckets due to Lamar. Last season, I thought, well you’ve got Marshal Yanda blocking, Lamar effect, but Gus still looks far better than a guy like Justice Hill (for example) and better than Ingram when given similar opportunities.

This season however, with the OL regression to start the season, facing the 9/10 man boxes vs 8/9 man boxes that we’ve seen for him in Lamar’s rookie season, etc... he’s thoroughly proven to me that he’s not just a plug and play guy. The Titans for example had all gaps contained, each defender had their own responsibility and thus someone was always keying in on our RBs, while another play was keying in on Lamar... with safety support to assist with both looks in obvious run conditions, yet Gus still trucks on through to an 4.8 YPC average.

What’s more I considered the effect Lamar has on an opposing defense in terms of the pressure he puts on them, but then I also thought about the effect that a veteran/great passing QB that dices up an opposing defense has on influencing the running game.. and I think it’s likely to be roughly the same. For example, the NO Saints... a defense can’t necessarily key in on the Saints rushing attack because of Brees being able to eat quickly in the passing attack. Brees can also audible at any time to a successful running play if he senses something that tips him off to an opportunistic play. I think this explains how Mark Ingram’s efficiency within the Saints offense as a runner as well as within the Ravens offense as a runner... were largely the same, outside of opportunities here and there.

Same thing with RBs that have lined up over the years behind the GOAT QBs. Or a back like CEH running behind Mahomes. He’s seeing less men in the box to contend with him and their main focus is on the KC passing attack, regardless of down and distance.

So I think when you consider that along with the fact that the Ravens passing attack under Roman is such trash where a single defender can consistently cover 2-3 guys on any given play... and the defense isn’t simply keying in on Lamar, but on our RBs as well. Thus I think the benefits afforded to them based off of the pressure Lamar puts on a defense is mostly offset by the lack of pressure our passing attack puts on opposing defenses- if that makes sense. Thus I personally think our RBs within any capable offense (obviously some situations are absolute trash all around), would produce roughly the same as they do within our offense- give or take some marginal volume for some marginal efficiency- in either direction.

EDIT: Kurt Warner actually did a recent breakdown of the Titans game and our passing attack going over just how terrible it is and how it’s essentially sabotaging Lamar’s ability as a QB. Such as the pass where he threw the interception. Honestly was an excellent breakdown, looking forward to more content of that sort from him regarding offenses around the league.

Edited by diamondbull424
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On 1/13/2021 at 12:24 PM, diamondbull424 said:

I mean, 19th in rushing yards. 5th in YPC. 10th in DYAR. 7th in DVOA. 85.7 PFF grade.

Ravens rushing attack has also averaged 204 rushing yards/game since 2018 when Gus (and Lamar) were added to the backfield.

Please present to me all these RBs with stronger claims as a top 20 back that make this take somehow “absurd”. And these are just the stats.

I’m not even considering the eye test where you’ve got a guy who is a 6’1” 240 lbs RB with 4.5 speed. Great RB vision to spot the cutback lanes or small creases to exploit. He’s increased his quickness and receiving ability this season as well, which is a big part of WHY I rank him where I do.

He’s proven at this point he’s not simply a recipient of the Lamar effect considering he’s achieving this production against 9 and sometimes 10 man boxes.

If a top 20 claim for such a back is considered absurd by the masses than if anything, Gus is actually underrated.

I'm probably missing a bunch of running backs I would prefer over Gus Edwards.  Here is a quick list that I don't think is super debatable.  

Christian McCaffrey, Ezekiel Elliott, Nick Chubb, Alvin Kamara, Aaron Jones, Saquon Barkley, Derrick Henry, Dalvin Cook, Austin Ekeler, Chris Carson, Miles Sanders, James Conner, David Montgomery, Josh Jacobs, Joe Mixon, Jonathan Taylor,  David Johnson, Cam Akers, Raheem Mostert, Kareem Hunt, Mike Davis, JK Dobbins, A. Gibson, Miles Gaskins, J Robinson

I'm not sure where he stands among people like this.

Ronald Jones, Leonard Fournette, Todd Gurley, Devin Singletary, Jeff Wilson Jr, Kenyan Drake, Melvin Gordon, David Johnson, Z. Moss, CEH, Devin Harris.

So yeah, top 20 is absurd.  Even if you're really high on Gus, I can give you any questionable ones and it's still easy to make a list of 20 clear cut superior backs.
Edited by ASmithFan1010
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11 minutes ago, ASmithFan1010 said:

I'm probably missing a bunch of running backs I would prefer over Gus Edwards.  Here is a quick list that I don't think is super debatable.  

Christian McCaffrey, Ezekiel Elliott, Nick Chubb, Alvin Kamara, Aaron Jones, Saquon Barkley, Derrick Henry, Dalvin Cook, Austin Ekeler, Chris Carson, Miles Sanders, James Conner, David Montgomery, Josh Jacobs, Joe Mixon, Jonathan Taylor,  David Johnson, Cam AkersRaheem Mostert, Kareem Hunt, Mike Davis, JK Dobbins, A. Gibson, Miles Gaskins, J Robinson

I'm not sure where he stands among people like this.

Ronald Jones, Leonard Fournette, Todd Gurley, Devin Singletary, Jeff Wilson Jr, Kenyan Drake, Melvin GordonDavid Johnson, Z. Moss, CEH, Devin Harris. (Damien Harris, I’m guess you meant).

So yeah, top 20 is absurd.  Even if you're really high on Gus, I can give you any questionable ones and it's still easy to make a list of 20 clear cut superior backs.

All the ones in bold are most certainly not better than Gus. Like the ones in the top half paragraph are particularly laughable. Some are only better if you’re going off of bulk production.

The ones in strikethrough can all be argued. Personally I’d rank Drake, Damien into the top 20. All the other names I’d have on the same tier as Gus, though I think he’s either proven more in general OR his availability/production combo puts him in contention. So considering all that, I’m taking Gus in that area.

So he’s top 20-25, for sure IMO. Any of the ones I strikethrough I could easily see listed above Gus and I would have no problem with it. However at worse, even if someone saw those RBs differently, that’s 25 RBs that could potentially be placed above him with the difference being “arguable” for many of them; like whether we’re talking advanced metrics, film/ability/talent, production over the last three seasons, etc. these can be argued.

So had I said “easily top 20” or “surefire top 20” as the other poster inserted, then sure you’d have a case for claiming Edwards inclusion was “absurdity”. But considering you’re putting RBs above Edwards for career achievement awards and not actual ability and showings, I have to question how often you’ve watched Gus as well as watched some of those other RBs you have “unquestionably” ranked ahead of him.

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7 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

So he’s top 20-25, for sure IMO. 

So had I said “easily top 20” or “surefire top 20” as the other poster inserted, then sure you’d have a case for claiming Edwards inclusion was “absurdity”. 

That's in the same post..? Not that it matters anyway. 
I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and Edwards is a good back. 
The thing is he doesn't strike me as a RB with a lot of upside compared to other guys listed (especially Akers / Mixon / Mostert / Gibson)
Maybe I haven't watch enough of him but that's what I've seen so far. 
Just curious on how he did improve compared to other seasons ?
 

Edited by MagicMT
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Just now, MagicMT said:

That's in the same post..? Not that it matters anyway. 
I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and Edwards is a good back. 
The thing is he doesn't strike me as a RB with a lot of upside compared to other guys listed. 
Maybe I haven't watch enough of him but that's what I've seen so far. 
Just curious on how he did improve compared to other seasons ?

But the thing is, I didn't say he was for sure top 20. I also said that AFTER the fact, not before.

I mean you’re going down the semantics train, but yes, I think he’s in the top 20-25 for sure. Regardless of how another feels, in my rankings theres no doubt in my mind that he’s somewhere in that 20-25 range. But no, I would not say he’s surefire/for sure top 20 because that would mean there’s a level of confidence/assertion there that is unshakeable in that claim. Whereas a claim of simply top 20 can easily be changed with additional context or newfound information. Anyways, that’s the last I feel I need to speak on strawman’s and/or semantic differences.

In terms of upside, maybe. But I also never though Gus would improve as much as he showed from year 2 to year 3. Now next year will he still be top 25? Maybe, maybe not. I’d probably guess and say no, considering Najee Harris should be that dude and there might possibly be some ascension from some of these other backs. Though who knows, for example, if a guy like Moestert has another injury plagued season next year, does he deserve to still be top 25? I don’t know.

The point is, the idea that it’s ABSURD for Gus to be considered top 20 is FAR MORE controversial a take IMO than the idea that he’s top 20. Like at worst, he’s like 26th best or so with a strong case that he should be ahead of guys ranked directly ahead of him. I find it weird that your level of semantics chasing doesn’t extend both ways.

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7 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

The point is, the idea that it’s ABSURD for Gus to be considered top 20 is FAR MORE controversial a take IMO than the idea that he’s top 20. Like at worst, he’s like 26th best or so with a strong case that he should be ahead of guys ranked directly ahead of him. I find it weird that your level of semantics chasing doesn’t extend both ways.

I guess that's true and he's not that far from top 20. Although for me he would be closer to #30 than #20.
I won't derail the thread more than that. 
Akers looks like a beast and it's going to be a good RB class with him/CEH/Taylor/Dobbins/Dillon

Edited by MagicMT
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On 1/17/2021 at 8:41 AM, MagicMT said:

I guess that's true and he's not that far from top 20. Although for me he would be closer to #30 than #20.
I won't derail the thread more than that. 
Akers looks like a beast and it's going to be a good RB class with him/CEH/Taylor/Dobbins/Dillon

Again, 

D'Andre Swift

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11 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

Yeah, that’s nice and all but I don’t buy it. From what I’ve seen Mixon is better and more talented. 

With Frank Pollack coming back this year, I would imagine this will no longer be “argued” (Mixon lead the AFC in rushing under Pollack in only 14 games). 

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Gus Edwards is a nice back but he's never had more than 144 carries in a season and he's a complete non-factor in the pass game.  Easy to achieve good efficiency with such a low volume, especially when your QB is Lamar Jackson.  Heck, 30-year old Mark Ingram had his 2nd best seasonal YPC ever (5.0) playing for them last year.  Gus doesn't belong in this conversation.

Edited by iknowcool
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