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2021 Offseason thread


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48 minutes ago, EagleBlueDon said:

Heavily agreed. This isn't MLB or the NBA where rebuilds are long term and you have to draft high and correctly just to be competitive. There are no lame duck seasons outside of Houston this year and even for them, they'll want to create a winning culture with their new HC in Culley. Why shouldn't we try everything we can to win and to create a winning culture with this new staff and QB? Like how is that backwards? Makes no sense to me to push back on signing a 28 year old CB2 for like $4-5M.

I agree. Foolish just to fold the season up before it starts. Gotta build a new winning culture with our new staff and tons of young guys. Can't have them get their brains smashed in on purpose then expect them to dominate the following year. 

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“Hey, guys…real quick before the season starts. We’re tanking. So, take it easy out there. If you happen to be very talented, please scale back your efforts and desire to compete and let your stats and play suffer ultimately effecting your next contract. Also, you older guys…sorry this is going to be a 2-3 year rebuild so we’re going to throw you out there preserving the younger guys. Since this is your last couple years in the league, it’s going to be on a losing team and we’ll cut you at the end of the year most likely. Sorry bout that. And Nick and staff, I know it’s your first time heading a team and I know you’re excited but we’re going to need you to just field a team and not really game plan or use logic or strategy whilst coaching this year. We’ll evaluate if you can actually coach when we feel we have significant pieces around you. And to acquire that we need young, controllable draft picks. As talented and as many as we can get. So, we need you to be as bad as possible to move up a few spots in a lottery, crap shoot that is the NFL draft. Thanks and kisses.”
 

Jeff and Howie $$$

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4 hours ago, Jroc04 said:

This logic is so silly. Did fans think we were ready to compete for a SB in 2017? 2016 we were 7-9. Maybe we were on a decent trajectory but no one thought we were SB ready. 
 

Every season is a new beginning. Especially in the NFL. New coaches means a different, sometimes brand new, scheme for the league to adjust to. We have young players hungry to compete and prove themselves. Good veterans that can hold a team together. I don’t see world beaters as of yet, position to position, is but you build on these things. Makes no sense to WANT to tank. And let’s be honest, when have you ever seen an NFL team tank a whole season? It doesn’t happen. It’s a year to year league. A coach has no time to tank. Players either. There’s always someone looking to take their jobs yearly. Taking a year off may mean jobless the next. Guys talking tank around here are practicing futility and ignorance. This isn’t Madden. 

This isn't Madden, the chances of turning around a team that was effectively 4-12 last year into something good is slim at best. Sure there's the slight chance that you turn things around quicker than expected. If we're like 5-3 at the trade deadline I could see us making a move, but to do so now is foolish.

I'm not saying "intentionally lose games." I'm saying stop mortgaging the future on a season that almost definitely isn't going to amount to much. Put your foot on the pedal when there's a lane to get through, don't just keep running into people in front of you.

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There's a stark difference between "Tanking." and not spending willy nilly when it's not going to amount to much. We should be trying to win games each and every week, with what we have now. Conserve resources until there's a plausible path forward.

If you plant crops, you have to till the fields first. 

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19 minutes ago, Danger said:

This isn't Madden, the chances of turning around a team that was effectively 4-12 last year into something good is slim at best. Sure there's the slight chance that you turn things around quicker than expected. If we're like 5-3 at the trade deadline I could see us making a move, but to do so now is foolish.

I'm not saying "intentionally lose games." I'm saying stop mortgaging the future on a season that almost definitely isn't going to amount to much. Put your foot on the pedal when there's a lane to get through, don't just keep running into people in front of you.

Signing Steven Nelson is mortgaging the future? That’s a bit hyperbolic. I don’t understand even the sentiment of tanking in the NFL. This offense could really surprise teams this year. Sanders, Goedert and the WRs could be a dynamic young offense. The defense could be pretty stout if all goes well and our FA additions perform. But we’d rather play the other side of the coin and purposefully not stock the cupboard because in July you don’t think we can compete. Last year, Dak went down and the division was wide open. One person gets hurt and your chances to get into the playoffs exponentially increases. Point is, going into a season, nobody knows fluff about what’s going to happen. You may have your off-season darlings like KC, Tampa and such but that’s just on paper. And besides the fact that you don’t know what’s going to happen, TEAMS DONT TANK. Guys don’t take seasons off. They want every reception, yard, tackle, sack, INT, touchdown, win they can get to improve their value. Simple as that. 

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On 7/21/2021 at 10:27 AM, Scalamania said:
On 7/21/2021 at 10:25 AM, TheRealMcCoy said:

His post with logic reminded me of yours on the same subject without logic that I said annoyed me lol.

I thought I clearly said that, but I guess not.

You annoyed because someone has a different opinion? Never.

I see it now, I was looking at in my phone and it looked super weird. 

It was just a bad opinion, because it didn't make any logical sense.

Like if we only had 1 first round pick I wound easily understand. Even if we had only 2 first round picks I could have understood since it's likely we might be looking at a QB and obviously we love our trench players (EDGE most likely) and with that position also looking like probably the 2nd strongest in the 2022 class behind corner its a good bet with Graham being long in the tooth and a pretty cloudy future for Barnett/Sweat who will both be UFAs after this season.

But, 3 first round picks likely and to pass on a corner? Yeah, I just can't fathom that with how stacked this corner class might be and Slay getting long in the tooth like BG at edge. The only position that could be considered more premium than corner would be edge rusher. The run on them will go fast and then you'll be left with the 2nd and 3rd tier guys at the position on day 2 which still could be pretty good if this class lives up to the hype, but I'd rather get one of the top 3-5 at that position with how sorely lacking we've been for the past decade or more now and I'm sure Roseman and the front office is thinking the same way. 

Corner might not be our 1st selection in next years draft like a lot of fans might like with say Stingley if he's available, but if we have 3 selections and use all of them, then corner will be one of them for sure. If the Colts pick conveys and we don't draft a corner in the first you can come back and say I told you so though.

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3 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

It was just a bad opinion, because it didn't make any logical sense.

Like if we only had 1 first round pick I wound easily understand. Even if we had only 2 first round picks I could have understood since it's likely we might be looking at a QB and obviously we love our trench players (EDGE most likely) and with that position also looking like probably the 2nd strongest in the 2022 class behind corner its a good bet with Graham being long in the tooth and a pretty cloudy future for Barnett/Sweat who will both be UFAs after this season.

But, 3 first round picks likely and to pass on a corner? Yeah, I just can't fathom that with how stacked this corner class might be and Slay getting long in the tooth like BG at edge. The only position that could be considered more premium than corner would be edge rusher. The run on them will go fast and then you'll be left with the 2nd and 3rd tier guys at the position on day 2 which still could be pretty good if this class lives up to the hype, but I'd rather get one of the top 3-5 at that position with how sorely lacking we've been for the past decade or more now and I'm sure Roseman and the front office is thinking the same way. 

Corner might not be our 1st selection in next years draft like a lot of fans might like with say Stingley if he's available, but if we have 3 selections and use all of them, then corner will be one of them for sure. If the Colts pick conveys and we don't draft a corner in the first you can come back and say I told you so though.

It didn't make any logical sense for us to take a QB in the second round two years ago but here we are. It also didn't make any logical sense for us to wait until the 4th round to take a DB this year. 

I never said I don't want us to pass on a corner just said that it wouldn't surprise me - if you say that a draft like this QB (Howell, Corral, Riddler), EDGE (Jackson, Karlaftis, Hutchinson) & OL (any of them) makes no sense logically, with the way our FO has drafted, then I don't know what to say. 

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36 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

It didn't make any logical sense for us to take a QB in the second round two years ago but here we are.

The logic was that we won with a back-up QB and Wentz's inability to be trusted to stay healthy and a back-up in the draft being a low cost investment money wise compared to a top back-up on the FA market. 

You can argue that taking a non starter that early isn't sound logic and obviously it backfired in hindsight since Hurts being behind Wentz definitely affected him mentally. 

36 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

It also didn't make any logical sense for us to wait until the 4th round to take a DB this year. 

I mean the corners worth the 11th selection were off the board by 9.

In Rounds 2 and 3 there were some options, but how do you know they didn't just stick to their board or that they thought the guys available weren't great fits? 

In round 2 after our pick there was only 2 corners that went. Kelvin Joseph to the Cowboys and Asante Samuel Jr to the Chargers. I don't think Joseph with his character concerns was even probably on their board. As far as ASJ I think you could argue he would be a fit and not be a fit since Gannon probably likes bigger/longer corners.

The first round was really our best bet to get a corner, but after our trade down there was always a chance the best ones wouldn't make it to us. 

We only had 3 picks in the top 100 last year. We'll likely have 3 picks in the top 20-25 this year in a CB heavy class.

36 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

I never said I don't want us to pass on a corner just said that it wouldn't surprise me

But, it shouldn't. Corner will be top 3 on their needs heading into next years draft unless somehow McPhearson starts outside as a rookie and looks pretty good which is doubtful.

36 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

OL (any of them) makes no sense logically, with the way our FO has drafted, then I don't know what to say. 

I don't understand OL. QB and EDGE obviously make sense.

The chances they take a C/G in the first round is probably extremely low, especially after what Roseman witnessed with the Watkins pick and maybe Dillard. Not to mention getting lots of guys on the OL in the 3rd round to UDFAs on the OL to produce. We also just took Dickerson with a high 2nd.

At tackle we have Mailata who if he plays well and improves on that promising first year starting will likely force our hand to re-sign. Dillard still has another year on his rookie deal (not the 5th year option) after this one. And, of course we still have big money tied up in Lane Johnson who doesn't make really any sense to cut or trade after this year.

I guess if Dillard and Mailata fall flat on their face this season it could open the door for OT in the first next year, but until that happens I don't think a first round OT is a likely proposition. 

Corner looks pretty bleak right now no matter how you chop it up... even if Slay (who is now 30 and turns 31 before the end of the season) can at the very least stay at the level he was last year or get back to better play which we  really need him to with the restructure. Hopefully McPhearson can start as a rookie at slot or maybe the outside and show some promise, but yeah.

There is almost no way corner isn't still a top need come next year. 

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1 hour ago, Scalamania said:

It didn't make any logical sense for us to take a QB in the second round two years ago but here we are. It also didn't make any logical sense for us to wait until the 4th round to take a DB this year. 

I never said I don't want us to pass on a corner just said that it wouldn't surprise me - if you say that a draft like this QB (Howell, Corral, Riddler), EDGE (Jackson, Karlaftis, Hutchinson) & OL (any of them) makes no sense logically, with the way our FO has drafted, then I don't know what to say. 

Yeah it’s not a guarantee with Howie he’ll take one. QB could very easily eat up two of those picks, could be walking into next year with no clear future at edge. I’d imagine he’ll hit those two first.

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46 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

The logic was that we won with a back-up QB and Wentz's inability to be trusted to stay healthy and a back-up in the draft being a low cost investment money wise compared to a top back-up on the FA market. 

You can argue that taking a non starter that early isn't sound logic and obviously it backfired in hindsight since Hurts being behind Wentz definitely affected him mentally. 

It made sense to take a quarterback at some point but logically it did not make sense to take a QB2 in the second round when you already have a "franchise" quarterback. 

47 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

I mean the corners worth the 11th selection were off the board by 9.

In Rounds 2 and 3 there were some options, but how do you know they didn't just stick to their board or that they thought the guys available weren't great fits? 

In round 2 after our pick there was only 2 corners that went. Kelvin Joseph to the Cowboys and Asante Samuel Jr to the Chargers. I don't think Joseph with his character concerns was even probably on their board. As far as ASJ I think you could argue he would be a fit and not be a fit since Gannon probably likes bigger/longer corners.

The first round was really our best bet to get a corner, but after our trade down there was always a chance the best ones wouldn't make it to us. 

We only had 3 picks in the top 100 last year. We'll likely have 3 picks in the top 20-25 this year in a CB heavy class.

I just don't think this FO values CB like the fan base does - we haven't taken a corner in the first round in how many years? If I remember correctly Lito was the last one, it just seems like the organization/FO value CB the same way they do LB. 

48 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

But, it shouldn't. Corner will be top 3 on their needs heading into next years draft unless somehow McPhearson starts outside as a rookie and looks pretty good which is doubtful.

Corner has been a need for years though - and this FO it out here taking a QB2, an injury prone iOL, an iDL who is a project and a LB who is a project. 

50 minutes ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

I don't understand OL. QB and EDGE obviously make sense.

The chances they take a C/G in the first round is probably extremely low, especially after what Roseman witnessed with the Watkins pick and maybe Dillard. Not to mention getting lots of guys on the OL in the 3rd round to UDFAs on the OL to produce. We also just took Dickerson with a high 2nd.

At tackle we have Mailata who if he plays well and improves on that promising first year starting will likely force our hand to re-sign. Dillard still has another year on his rookie deal (not the 5th year option) after this one. And, of course we still have big money tied up in Lane Johnson who doesn't make really any sense to cut or trade after this year.

I guess if Dillard and Mailata fall flat on their face this season it could open the door for OT in the first next year, but until that happens I don't think a first round OT is a likely proposition. 

Corner looks pretty bleak right now no matter how you chop it up... even if Slay (who is now 30 and turns 31 before the end of the season) can at the very least stay at the level he was last year or get back to better play which we  really need him to with the restructure. Hopefully McPhearson can start as a rookie at slot or maybe the outside and show some promise, but yeah.

There is almost no way corner isn't still a top need come next year. 

This FO takes lineman, on both sides of the ball. They just value those positions more. If we end up with 3 FRPs and you think one of them isn't going to be an OL, and most likely an iOL then we just see things differently when it comes to the draft. 

...and once again, I'm not arguing that corner isn't a need -it'll be hard to swallow if they pass on Stingley or Elam (or whoever else). All I'm saying is it won't surprise me if they do. 

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15 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

It was supposed to be Rattler, what a miss by me. Still getting used to this iPhone lol. 

Oh. I thought you were trying to say Ridder. You did a perfect combination of their names lol.

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12 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

This FO takes lineman, on both sides of the ball. They just value those positions more. If we end up with 3 FRPs and you think one of them isn't going to be an OL, and most likely an iOL then we just see things differently when it comes to the draft. 

...and once again, I'm not arguing that corner isn't a need -it'll be hard to swallow if they pass on Stingley or Elam (or whoever else). All I'm saying is it won't surprise me if they do. 

I'd be kinda surprised if they went IOL in the first with just taking Dickerson so high.
But if there is a guy worth taking I guess it makes sense, could be 3 new starters at IOL next year.
Would be nice if there is a good RT/Guard type.

My bet is they trade up to get a QB (Corral or Ridder) and take the Edge from Purdue (Karlaftis).
or
They trade two of the picks for Watson and take Karlaftis too.

Both just seem like what Howie would do.

I'll be shocked if they take all three. 

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9 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

It made sense to take a quarterback at some point but logically it did not make sense to take a QB2 in the second round when you already have a "franchise" quarterback. 

I get it and agree for the most part.

I was just saying there isn't zero logic behind that decision.

Patriots also had a franchise QB (obviously) in Brady when they took Jimmy G in the 2nd round. 

A highly drafted back-up QB can be an asset in the sense they are much cheaper option than a back-up on the FA market while also providing higher upside and being a trade commodity later if needed.

Like we are proof of that. We took Kolb in the 2nd round in 2007 when we had a starter in McNabb and ended up being able to flip him after his first contract for a nice return.

If Hurts shows enough promise he can be the projected starter going forward and if he shows promise but not enough for them to want him as the future starter, then he still likely will have trade value with 2 years left on his deal.

22 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

I just don't think this FO values CB like the fan base does - we haven't taken a corner in the first round in how many years? If I remember correctly Lito was the last one, it just seems like the organization/FO value CB the same way they do LB. 

Maybe they don't value it as much as fans.

But, I mean we've spent a 2nd on Eric Rowe/Sidney Jones and a 3rd on Rasul Douglas.

We haven't spent a 1st on a corner recently, but I'd argue if one of the corners lasted to us this year they would've very likely been the pick. There was a ton of buzz around them, especially Horn. We ended up trading up for Smith cause we were about to be shut out of all our top WRs/CBs which were two of the worst position groups on this roster.

We also traded for Darius Slay recently.

Spent a big contract on Asomugha and Maxwell.

26 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

Corner has been a need for years though - and this FO it out here taking a QB2, an injury prone iOL, an iDL who is a project and a LB who is a project. 

Unfortunately they spent a lot time hoping Maddox, Douglas, and Jones would pan out.

Also, two years (2017 & 2018)  we didn't have that much in the way of draft capital.

I'd argue our ignoring safety in drafts has been more maddening than corner lol. We took K'Von Wallace in the 4th round last year obviously, but we've pretty much ignored it always. Obviously our lack of LB in the first round is widely reported, but we have taken LBs in the first in our history (obviously have to go all the way back to the late 70s but still). On the other hand we haven't taken a true safety in the first round ever. Last time we spent high draft capital on safety was all the way back a decade ago in Jarrett (2011) and Allen (2010) a year before that. Oof.

At least we made really good signings on Jenkins and McLeod to a bit lesser extent to hold us over though.

43 minutes ago, Scalamania said:

This FO takes lineman, on both sides of the ball. They just value those positions more. If we end up with 3 FRPs and you think one of them isn't going to be an OL, and most likely an iOL then we just see things differently when it comes to the draft. 

...and once again, I'm not arguing that corner isn't a need -it'll be hard to swallow if they pass on Stingley or Elam (or whoever else). All I'm saying is it won't surprise me if they do. 

They do. I'm not arguing that. I just think CB is gonna be a much bigger/glaring need come the 2022 draft than anywhere in the trenches besides maybe EDGE.

I never said you didn't believe it was a need. I just think if we have 3 first rounders its crazy to think they most likely won't take one with one of the picks. Like I said if it was just 1 or 2 first rounders we had then I could understand it. We might only end up with 2 first rounders anyways. It's not a guarantee Wentz doesn't get injured. Plus, even if the Colts convey there is a possibility it gets packaged with ours to move up for a QB or for Watson if his stuff is put behind him. I'm just saying if we have all 3 firsts and use them like you described then corner is more than likely one of those picks.

With that said, I understand your doubts/perspective more now than before that initial post.

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