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1 minute ago, Louis Friend said:

I definitely keep Okwara. We cannot keep losing DL talent that we've coached up. He's a solid DE that hopefully won't cost us a ton. He also has his brother here which works in our favor just a little. 

I like Rousseau and Paye, but they aren't game changers for me. If we draft one of them, it helps our DL, but I don't think their addition changes the fact that our DL needs a complete overhaul especially inside. John Penisini has been a solid depth DT for us. But we basically need two starters inside. I'm not high on Williams or Shelton. I can see both leaving in the next two seasons. This is where my love for Marvin Wilson comes in. 

IMO, our entire defense is bad, on every level. We have two young promising CBs that hopefully can pan out. We have Okwara who is a free agent but arguably our best DL. We have nothing else to build around IMO. This is not a plug a hole situation. We need help everywhere. So I'm taking the best talent available where I can, and filling it up piece by piece. 

So where do you put Flowers in that scenario? 

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Micah Parsons at 7 if he is available.  We won't be able to afford to trae/cut Stafford unless he re-works his contract.  I have mentioned in other threads that Jamie Newman is legitimate QB prospect.  He has all the tools to be really good.  We need help at LB in the worst way.  We are in a little better shape at DT.  Penisini looks like a solid player and I get the feeling Kevin Strong will be a solid role player with a new staff that knows how to coach players instead of coaching a system. 

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Honestly, I put whoever deserves it out there. Same thing with CBs if we draft Farley. I don't care about contracts or draft position. Put them all on the field and let the cream rise to the top. If someone gets beat out as a starter, that improves our depth. And let's be honest, we've been riddled with injuries at every level as well. Having more than one or two good options at a position is not a bad thing. We just aren't used to it. 

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16 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

Honestly, I put whoever deserves it out there. Same thing with CBs if we draft Farley. I don't care about contracts or draft position. Put them all on the field and let the cream rise to the top. If someone gets beat out as a starter, that improves our depth. And let's be honest, we've been riddled with injuries at every level as well. Having more than one or two good options at a position is not a bad thing. We just aren't used to it. 

I get that but you also don't want your cap dollars being tied up in guys who aren't producing either. If Flowers isn't a scheme fit, we could gain $14M in a trade for him. There are some teams with a boatload of cap space that might be willing to take that on for a 5th. 

It would open up a big hole at a position that already has a lot of needs so I don't know if it would make the most sense to do it. I just don't see value in paying a guy like that to keep in the background or as a role player. 

Premium positions are: QB, LT, Pass-Rusher, CB... We've already spent a high pick on a CB and have another young guy on the roster. I'm personally not a fan of investing that much capital into that position group and having them all be practically rookies when we have major needs at a more prominent premium position (pass-rusher). 

I could get behind paying Okwara $6-8M x 3 years, trade Flowers to open up the cap room and drafting Rousseau/Paye while adding talent at defensive tackle. Shelton and Williams are likely gone. You're paying Penisini peanuts so you aren't going to move off of him. 

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48 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

This is a question for @Sllim Pickens and @Louis Friend 

I'm assuming that we'll be running a more traditional 4 man front: DE, DT, NT, DE

I don't think there is any question that we need a major overhaul at the defensive tackle (DT and NT) position. What would you do at DE? 

We have Flowers with a big contract, Romeo Okwara was our best guy but is a FA, Hand has struggled with injuries for too long to be considered an option. The draft offers up guys like Paye and Rousseau who should be there at #7. 

Do you bring back Okwara, pair him up again with Flowers and then just upgrade the interior? Do you kick Flowers inside and draft Paye/Rousseau to play opposite of Okwara?

I think it depends on Okwara's contract demands.  He wasn't great against the run and his sack totals are career highs, I am not paying to keep that.  I agree that interior is a big need but so is edge even if we keep Okwara.  Perhaps Julian Okwara gets healthy and makes an impact.  Perhaps if Saleh comes here he attracts some decent FAs on the line.   

I am all for Rouuseau and perhaps Paye at 7.  I am hoping for Parsons and hoping that the QBs all impress so they are all gone before us so Parsons falls to us.  I also like guys like Twyman, Barmore, Basham, in the second.  I am not stuck on any prospect or position but CB is one of the last I am looking at in the first this year.   I think Collins can be solid but he really needs help next to him.  We have been really bad at LB for years and its tiring.  

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1 minute ago, Karnage84 said:

I get that but you also don't want your cap dollars being tied up in guys who aren't producing either. If Flowers isn't a scheme fit, we could gain $14M in a trade for him. There are some teams with a boatload of cap space that might be willing to take that on for a 5th. 

It would open up a big hole at a position that already has a lot of needs so I don't know if it would make the most sense to do it. I just don't see value in paying a guy like that to keep in the background or as a role player. 

Premium positions are: QB, LT, Pass-Rusher, CB... We've already spent a high pick on a CB and have another young guy on the roster. I'm personally not a fan of investing that much capital into that position group and having them all be practically rookies when we have major needs at a more prominent premium position (pass-rusher). 

I could get behind paying Okwara $6-8M x 3 years, trade Flowers to open up the cap room and drafting Rousseau/Paye while adding talent at defensive tackle. Shelton and Williams are likely gone. You're paying Penisini peanuts so you aren't going to move off of him. 

The bolded, I could get behind as well. 

When you start addressing holes on a team void of talent, you end up with less talent overall and holes elsewhere. If you are a playoff team and need a pass rusher, by all means, go out and address that hole. We are a rebuilding team needing talent at every single position. Plugging holes would not be my priorty. I'm grabbing the best talent in the draft over the next 2 years and addressing left over holes in free agency.

The pieces I'm comfortable building around the next 3+ years:

RB D'Andre Swift

LT Taylor Decker

C Frank Ragnow

G Jonah Jackson

TE TJ Hockenson

WR Kenny Golladay (if re-signed)

DE Romeo Okwara (if re-signed)

CB Amani Oruwariye

CB Jeff Okudah

KR/PR Jamal Agnew (if re-signed)

P Jack Fox (if re-signed)

There are some solid depth guys (Penisini, Kerryon, Cephus) if they stick around, but we legitimately have 7 starters, long term, that are signed beyond this season. We are not in a position, IMO, to start focusing on specific holes. We have swiss cheese out there. 

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I certainly don't want R. Okwara back at the price I've heard people talking about. If you think he's signing for $8m a year, you can forget that.

There were only 10 players in the NFL this year with double digit sacks and he was one of them. There will be teams lining up to overpay him, and their fanbases won't know that he's invisible 70% of the time.

He's going to get 4+ years at 13 or 15 mil per, and I bet whoever gives it to him gets something a lot closer to 2019 unless he joins a DL much better than the Lions.

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13 hours ago, Superduperman said:

I certainly don't want R. Okwara back at the price I've heard people talking about. If you think he's signing for $8m a year, you can forget that.

There were only 10 players in the NFL this year with double digit sacks and he was one of them. There will be teams lining up to overpay him, and their fanbases won't know that he's invisible 70% of the time.

He's going to get 4+ years at 13 or 15 mil per, and I bet whoever gives it to him gets something a lot closer to 2019 unless he joins a DL much better than the Lions.

Shaq Barrett won the sack title last year (2019) and didn't get anything other than the franchise tag at $15M. He'll be available.

If Okwara gets anything in the double digit figures then I am in 100% agreement with you. 

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