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I dont understand the appeal for Zach Thomas. I remember when he was considered hall of the good when he retired. Never was considered good as Urlacher or Ray Lewis. 

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Boselli played 4 seasons of 15+ games.

  • He played 6 seasons of 12+ games.
  • He got to one AFFCG and his offense put up 6 points in that game.
  • Hall of Really Really Good *

Faneca had as many first team all-pro seasons as Boselli had seasons of 4+ games.

 

* If 89 games at a very high level gets you in the Hall of Fame without extra consideration for titles or playoff excellence then we need to add 100 more guys to the Hall.

I'm not against doing that, but as honorary selections, not getting in the way of great players who played more and accomplished more.

  • Terrell Davis' 68 game peak is ridiculously high (5.6 ypc and 12 TDs in 8 playoff games, league MVP, SB MVP, 2 titles)
  • Warner's pair of 50 and 56 game peaks were ridiculously high. (MVP, SB MVP, 3 SBs, 1 title)
  • Gale Sayers 61 game peak was ridiculously high as a runner, pass catcher, and returner. (imagine Tyreek Hill dropped into the 1960s)

Bosselli was as good as Walter Jones (not as good as Orlando Pace) during his peak but it was a short peak and it was not at the level of the 3 guys above.

He *might* have been the best player at his position for a period of 32 games (28 reg 4 playoffs) in 1997-1998

Pace was clearly better in 1999 and 2000.

 

This is not a bash on a fantastic player. Its a comparison to everyone else.

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On 1/6/2021 at 6:23 PM, TENINCH said:

I dont understand the appeal for Zach Thomas. I remember when he was considered hall of the good when he retired. Never was considered good as Urlacher

I mean...I don't know who really could agree with this.

Thomas 

  Games Def Interceptions Fumbles   Tackles    
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL QBHits Sfty AV
Career       184 182 17 170 4 34 48 16 0 8 29 0 20.5 1734 1107 627 74 5   148
12 yrs MIA     168 168 17 170 4 34 45 16 0 7 29 0 19.5 1640 1042 598 70 4   141
1 yr DAL     16 14 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 1.0 94 65 29 4 1   7
1996 23 MIA MLB 54 16 16 3 64 1 27   2 0 2 7 0 2.0 154 120 34       10
1997 24 MIA MLB 54 15 15 1 10 0 10   2 0 0 0 0 0.5 128 78 50       7
1998+ 25 MIA MLB 54 16 16 3 21 2 17   2 0 0 0 0 2.0 137 86 51       19
1999*+ 26 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 134 85 49 13     15
2000* 27 MIA MLB 54 11 11 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1.5 99 56 43 8     9
2001* 28 MIA MLB 54 15 15 2 51 1 34 4 2 0 0 0 0 3.0 155 95 60 4     13
2002*+ 29 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 7 0 7 4 0 0 1 22 0 0.5 156 100 56 4     14
2003*+ 30 MIA MLB 54 15 15 3 21 0 19 10 1 0 2 0 0 1.0 153 85 68 10     17
2004 31 MIA MLB 54 13 13 0 0 0 0 4           2.0 145 85 60 9     8
2005* 32 MIA MLB 54 14 14 1 0 0 0 3 4 0 1 0 0 2.0 162 107 55 13     12
2006*+ 33 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 -4 0 -4 8 2 0 0 0 0 3.0 165 103 62 7 3   15
2007 34 MIA mlb 54 5 5 0 0 0 0 2           1.0 52 42 10 2 1   2
2008 35 DAL RILB 55 16 14 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 1.0 94 65 29 4 1   7

 

Urlacher:

  Games Def Interceptions Fumbles   Tackles    
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL QBHits Sfty AV
Career       182 180 22 324 2 85 90 11 0 15 177 2 41.5 1361 1046 315 138 24   150
2000* 22 CHI MLB 54 16 14 2 19 0 19 5 0 0 1 0 0 8.0 124 98 26 16     10
2001*+ 23 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 60 0 41 8 2 0 2 101 1 6.0 118 91 27 9     21
2002*+ 24 CHI MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 7 2 0 2 43 0 4.5 153 117 36 19     14
2003* 25 CHI MLB 54 16 16 0 0 0 0 4           2.5 115 86 29 9     9
2004 26 CHI MLB 54 9 9 1 42 0 42 7 2 0 0 0 0 5.5 72 54 18 9     6
2005*+ 27 CHI MLB 54 16 16 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 122 98 24 17     18
2006*+ 28 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 38 0 36 9 1 0 1 0 0 0.0 142 93 49 11 8   18
2007 29 CHI MLB 54 16 16 5 101 1 85 12 0 0 2 0 0 5.0 123 93 30 7 7   10
2008 30 CHI MLB 54 16 16 2 11 0 11 9 0 0 1 0 0 0.0 93 79 14 10 3   9
2009 31 CHI   54 1 1                     0.0 3 3 0 1 1   0
2010* 32 CHI MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 10 1 0 2 0 0 4.0 126 97 29 13 5   15
2011* 33 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 7 0 8 7 0 0 2 29 1 0.0 102 84 18 9 0   12
2012 34 CHI MLB 54 12 12 1 46 1 46 7 2 0 2 4 0 0.0 68 53 15 8 0   8
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4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I mean...I don't know who really could agree with this.

Thomas 

  Games Def Interceptions Fumbles   Tackles    
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL QBHits Sfty AV
Career       184 182 17 170 4 34 48 16 0 8 29 0 20.5 1734 1107 627 74 5   148
12 yrs MIA     168 168 17 170 4 34 45 16 0 7 29 0 19.5 1640 1042 598 70 4   141
1 yr DAL     16 14 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 1.0 94 65 29 4 1   7
1996 23 MIA MLB 54 16 16 3 64 1 27   2 0 2 7 0 2.0 154 120 34       10
1997 24 MIA MLB 54 15 15 1 10 0 10   2 0 0 0 0 0.5 128 78 50       7
1998+ 25 MIA MLB 54 16 16 3 21 2 17   2 0 0 0 0 2.0 137 86 51       19
1999*+ 26 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 134 85 49 13     15
2000* 27 MIA MLB 54 11 11 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1.5 99 56 43 8     9
2001* 28 MIA MLB 54 15 15 2 51 1 34 4 2 0 0 0 0 3.0 155 95 60 4     13
2002*+ 29 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 7 0 7 4 0 0 1 22 0 0.5 156 100 56 4     14
2003*+ 30 MIA MLB 54 15 15 3 21 0 19 10 1 0 2 0 0 1.0 153 85 68 10     17
2004 31 MIA MLB 54 13 13 0 0 0 0 4           2.0 145 85 60 9     8
2005* 32 MIA MLB 54 14 14 1 0 0 0 3 4 0 1 0 0 2.0 162 107 55 13     12
2006*+ 33 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 -4 0 -4 8 2 0 0 0 0 3.0 165 103 62 7 3   15
2007 34 MIA mlb 54 5 5 0 0 0 0 2           1.0 52 42 10 2 1   2
2008 35 DAL RILB 55 16 14 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 1.0 94 65 29 4 1   7

 

Urlacher:

  Games Def Interceptions Fumbles   Tackles    
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL QBHits Sfty AV
Career       182 180 22 324 2 85 90 11 0 15 177 2 41.5 1361 1046 315 138 24   150
2000* 22 CHI MLB 54 16 14 2 19 0 19 5 0 0 1 0 0 8.0 124 98 26 16     10
2001*+ 23 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 60 0 41 8 2 0 2 101 1 6.0 118 91 27 9     21
2002*+ 24 CHI MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 7 2 0 2 43 0 4.5 153 117 36 19     14
2003* 25 CHI MLB 54 16 16 0 0 0 0 4           2.5 115 86 29 9     9
2004 26 CHI MLB 54 9 9 1 42 0 42 7 2 0 0 0 0 5.5 72 54 18 9     6
2005*+ 27 CHI MLB 54 16 16 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 122 98 24 17     18
2006*+ 28 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 38 0 36 9 1 0 1 0 0 0.0 142 93 49 11 8   18
2007 29 CHI MLB 54 16 16 5 101 1 85 12 0 0 2 0 0 5.0 123 93 30 7 7   10
2008 30 CHI MLB 54 16 16 2 11 0 11 9 0 0 1 0 0 0.0 93 79 14 10 3   9
2009 31 CHI   54 1 1                     0.0 3 3 0 1 1   0
2010* 32 CHI MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 10 1 0 2 0 0 4.0 126 97 29 13 5   15
2011* 33 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 7 0 8 7 0 0 2 29 1 0.0 102 84 18 9 0   12
2012 34 CHI MLB 54 12 12 1 46 1 46 7 2 0 2 4 0 0.0 68 53 15 8 0   8

Guess my memory was off. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 7:23 AM, TENINCH said:

I dont understand the appeal for Zach Thomas. I remember when he was considered hall of the good when he retired. Never was considered good as Urlacher or Ray Lewis. 

Funny-15.gif

He was every bit as good. Just didn't have the bravado Ray Ray had. I hope he gets in, as it's long overdue to me. 

EDIT: I see someone already spoke up. My bad. 

Edited by TecmoSuperJoe
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On 1/6/2021 at 6:23 PM, TENINCH said:

I dont understand the appeal for Zach Thomas. I remember when he was considered hall of the good when he retired. Never was considered good as Urlacher or Ray Lewis. 

Darn.... He was never considered as good as two of the best to ever play the game. Don't think the HoF is exclusively for those people bc they're fairly rare. 

Thomas will get in, no question, but not this year and he is absolutely deserving. 

Edited by BobbyPhil1781
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13 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I mean...I don't know who really could agree with this.

Thomas 

  Games Def Interceptions Fumbles   Tackles    
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL QBHits Sfty AV
Career       184 182 17 170 4 34 48 16 0 8 29 0 20.5 1734 1107 627 74 5   148
12 yrs MIA     168 168 17 170 4 34 45 16 0 7 29 0 19.5 1640 1042 598 70 4   141
1 yr DAL     16 14 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 1.0 94 65 29 4 1   7
1996 23 MIA MLB 54 16 16 3 64 1 27   2 0 2 7 0 2.0 154 120 34       10
1997 24 MIA MLB 54 15 15 1 10 0 10   2 0 0 0 0 0.5 128 78 50       7
1998+ 25 MIA MLB 54 16 16 3 21 2 17   2 0 0 0 0 2.0 137 86 51       19
1999*+ 26 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 134 85 49 13     15
2000* 27 MIA MLB 54 11 11 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1.5 99 56 43 8     9
2001* 28 MIA MLB 54 15 15 2 51 1 34 4 2 0 0 0 0 3.0 155 95 60 4     13
2002*+ 29 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 7 0 7 4 0 0 1 22 0 0.5 156 100 56 4     14
2003*+ 30 MIA MLB 54 15 15 3 21 0 19 10 1 0 2 0 0 1.0 153 85 68 10     17
2004 31 MIA MLB 54 13 13 0 0 0 0 4           2.0 145 85 60 9     8
2005* 32 MIA MLB 54 14 14 1 0 0 0 3 4 0 1 0 0 2.0 162 107 55 13     12
2006*+ 33 MIA MLB 54 16 16 1 -4 0 -4 8 2 0 0 0 0 3.0 165 103 62 7 3   15
2007 34 MIA mlb 54 5 5 0 0 0 0 2           1.0 52 42 10 2 1   2
2008 35 DAL RILB 55 16 14 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 1.0 94 65 29 4 1   7

 

Urlacher:

  Games Def Interceptions Fumbles   Tackles    
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL QBHits Sfty AV
Career       182 180 22 324 2 85 90 11 0 15 177 2 41.5 1361 1046 315 138 24   150
2000* 22 CHI MLB 54 16 14 2 19 0 19 5 0 0 1 0 0 8.0 124 98 26 16     10
2001*+ 23 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 60 0 41 8 2 0 2 101 1 6.0 118 91 27 9     21
2002*+ 24 CHI MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 7 2 0 2 43 0 4.5 153 117 36 19     14
2003* 25 CHI MLB 54 16 16 0 0 0 0 4           2.5 115 86 29 9     9
2004 26 CHI MLB 54 9 9 1 42 0 42 7 2 0 0 0 0 5.5 72 54 18 9     6
2005*+ 27 CHI MLB 54 16 16 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 122 98 24 17     18
2006*+ 28 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 38 0 36 9 1 0 1 0 0 0.0 142 93 49 11 8   18
2007 29 CHI MLB 54 16 16 5 101 1 85 12 0 0 2 0 0 5.0 123 93 30 7 7   10
2008 30 CHI MLB 54 16 16 2 11 0 11 9 0 0 1 0 0 0.0 93 79 14 10 3   9
2009 31 CHI   54 1 1                     0.0 3 3 0 1 1   0
2010* 32 CHI MLB 54 16 16 1 0 0 0 10 1 0 2 0 0 4.0 126 97 29 13 5   15
2011* 33 CHI MLB 54 16 16 3 7 0 8 7 0 0 2 29 1 0.0 102 84 18 9 0   12
2012 34 CHI MLB 54 12 12 1 46 1 46 7 2 0 2 4 0 0.0 68 53 15 8 0   8

In the latest episode of when posting stats goes wrong. One of these LBers revolutionized the MLB position in the tampa-2 defense and the other didn't.

Stats also don't account for the differences in responsibility on defense.

Even if you go by these stats you posted, Urlacher had; twice as many sacks and twice as many deflections. 

Urlacher made more big plays and was the glue to a defense that was top tier in every year he played with the exception of 2 (one of which playing with year lasting hamstring injury while playing a new role). 

Thomas was good but he was not Urlacher good. 

Edited by JAF-N72EX
Read somthing wrong.
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3 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

In the latest episode of when posting stats goes wrong. One of these LBers revolutionized the MLB position in the tampa-2 defense and the other didn't.

Stats also don't account for the differences in responsibility on defense.

Even if you go by these stats you posted, Urlacher had; twice as many sacks and twice as many deflections. 

Urlacher made more big plays and was the glue to a defense that was top tier in every year he played with the exception of 2 (one of which playing with year lasting hamstring injury while playing a new role). 

Thomas was good but he was not Urlacher good. 

There’s a much more deserving LB on the ballot than Urlacher anyway:

EMRBaMeUcAAPa1W.jpg
 

As for your earlier comment, I’d encourage you to read this H2H comparison:

Since Hall of Fame voters often look for comparable players in evaluating a player's candidacy, maybe the best case for Thomas is how he compares with former Chicago Bears great Brian Urlacher.

Urlacher was a 6-foot-4, 258-pound can't-miss prospect who was selected ninth overall in the 2000 NFL draft.

Thomas was a 5-foot-11, 228-pound college star whose size limitations made him anything but a sure thing in the NFL, which is why he lasted until the fifth round of that 1996 draft.

Urlacher's career was deemed impressive enough that he was elected to the Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility.

Thomas has been eligible for the Hall of Fame since 2014, only became a semifinalist in 2019, and never has been a finalist.

In 182 career games, Urlacher had 1,354 total tackles, 22 interceptions, 41.5 sacks , 11 forced fumbles, 15 fumble recoveries, 4 defensive touchdowns and 138 tackles for loss. Urlacher made the Pro Bowl eight times and was a four-time All-Pro selection.

In 184 games, Thomas had 1,727 tackles, 17 interceptions, 20.5 sacks, 16 forced fumbles, 8 fumble recoveries, 4 touchdowns and 74 tackles for loss (though those stats weren't kept before 1999). Thomas made the Pro Bowl eight times and was a five-time All-Pro selection.

If somebody wants to use Urlacher playing in a Super Bowl while Thomas didn't as an argument against Thomas' candidacy, we'd counter that by pointing out Thomas went to the playoffs five times in his 12 seasons with the Dolphins compared to four times in 13 seasons for Urlacher with the Bears.

Here's another (important) argument in Thomas' favor: The Dolphins defense ranked in the top 10 in total yards allowed eight times in 12 seasons with Thomas; the Chicago defense with Urlacher ranked in the top 10 only three times.

 

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18 hours ago, MWil23 said:

There’s a much more deserving LB on the ballot than Urlacher anyway:

I assume you mean Zach Thomas? Or were only mentioning Urlacher because of the comparison image. 

BTW,  you can't fairly compare players from different eras. Especially when they are 30-40 years apart. And trying use stats to compare them is only a double wammy. 

18 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Here's another (important) argument in Thomas' favor: The Dolphins defense ranked in the top 10 in total yards allowed eight times in 12 seasons with Thomas; the Chicago defense with Urlacher ranked in the top 10 only three times.

I don't know who wrote this and I'm not going to get into it too much,  but any fan or writer who uses total yards in any argument to credit or discredit a single unit instantly loses all credibility in my book.  

I watched both of them play and Thomas was not as good as Urlacher IMO. And that's not a knock on Thomas or me saying that he wasn't good either.  Just like I never thought Urlacher was as good as Lewis but that wasn't me saying Urlacher wasn't great either.  Thomas will eventually be in Canton and deservingly so.

When Urlacher was drafted in 2000 he made an immediate impact and he helped take a bottom dwelling defense that struggled for nearly a decade and made them a top-11 defense in 8 of the 12 full seasons he had played, including five top-5 finishes, two #1s,  one 12th rank finish, and his defense(and STs) carried the offense to a SB.  Whenever he wasn't on the field there was a night and day difference that was clearly visible to anyone watching the game.  That's how much of a impact he had on not only the defense but the team in general, and important factors like these can't be 

And keep in mind, he did this with no help from the offense, and while also playing his entire career in a division with 2 of the greatest QBs of all-time (Favre, Rodgers) along with Culpepper (Moss).  We're talking terrible offenses too...not even mediocre.  The highest the offense ranked over his entire career was 18th in the league -- they average 26th in his career.  (God I hate being a Bears fan sometimes lol). The same level of impact can't be said for Thomas. 

Bears defensive DVOA rankings 5 years before drafting Urlacher: 
1995:  24th (+7.4%)
1996:  21st  (+4.5%)
1997:  24th (+6.0%)
1998:  23rd (+7.9%)
1999:  25th (+6.5%)

Bears defensive DVOA rankings 13 years after drafting Urlacher:
2000:  20th  (+5.2%)
2001:  6th  (-11.3%)
2002:  22nd  (+2.6%)
2003:  16th  (+1.7%) <--Played all year with a hamstring injury
2004:  9th  (-6.2%)
2005:  1st  (-18.4%)
2006:  2nd  (-19.9%)
2007:  12th  (-4..8%)
2008:  7th  (-9.7%)
2009:  22nd  (+4.1%) <-- Missed the season after dislocating his wrist in the first game)
2010:  3rd  (-10.8%)
2011:  4th  (-13.3%)
2012:  1st  (-26.1%) <---His final year

Bears defensive DVOA rankings 5 years after Urlacher's retirement:
2013:  25th  (+9.4%)
2014:  29th  (+11.4%)
2015:  31st  (+11.9%)
2016:  22nd (+5.6%)
2017:  14th (-0.4%) 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I assume you mean Zach Thomas? Or were only mentioning Urlacher because of the comparison image. 

BTW,  you can't fairly compare players from different eras. Especially when they are 30-40 years apart. And trying use stats to compare them is only a double wammy. 

No, Clay Matthews.

And your response shows your bias. No sense discussing this further. Urlacher made an immediate impact...and Zach was the DROY. You’re irrationally blinded about this.

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4 hours ago, CKSteeler said:

The two plays that define Urlacher to me as a non-Bears fan, fairly or not, are him getting run over by the Jerome Bettis in 2005 in the snow and getting juked by Tom Brady...in the snow.

Urlachers from New Mexico, so he never got to train in snow. Take it easy on him. 

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45 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Says person who brings up a random Browns player from 40 years ago when discussing Thomas and Urlacher.  Good argument. 

Random? Clay is a HOF finalist...and I mentioned him on Page 1 or 2 and used that as a reason to show how past due he is to get in. 

And yep, you can’t deny the side by side comparison I posted. 

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