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Rivera on the OL


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On 1/9/2021 at 9:43 AM, turtle28 said:

We’re projected to have $40.5 mil with the cap I believe being at $175 million.

smith will retire so more like 50 mil

 

might be a year to get bargain players too

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2 hours ago, Vladimir L said:

smith will retire so more like 50 mil

 

might be a year to get bargain players too

Yeah, $49 million, we still have to convince people to come here. We don’t have a definite answer at QB, it’s unlikely we get the cream of the crop free agents.

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1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

Yeah, $49 million, we still have to convince people to come here. We don’t have a definite answer at QB, it’s unlikely we get the cream of the crop free agents.

money talks

 

these guys know its a business

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On 1/10/2021 at 10:05 AM, Vladimir L said:

smith will retire so more like 50 mil

 

might be a year to get bargain players too

I see no way Brandon leaves this team he’s our best OL. Maybe he isn’t a LT but I don’t think that matters. To have a successful OL you need to have 3 top tier players along the line. It can be any variation as far as where they line up ideally you have your top tier LT but it can be RG,RT,LG. It can be LT,C,RG it can be RG,C,LG it can be LT,C,RT or even a strong side of C,RG,RT or the other way. Brandon is our best and I think he and the guys that have been drafted here from C to RT all thrive with Brandon. We can upgrade LG and LT. But keeping Brandon puts us below that 3 top tier players that’s not good for us especially with our focus on finding our QB and more then likely developing him

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6 hours ago, ripsean21 said:

I see no way Brandon leaves this team he’s our best OL. Maybe he isn’t a LT but I don’t think that matters. To have a successful OL you need to have 3 top tier players along the line. It can be any variation as far as where they line up ideally you have your top tier LT but it can be RG,RT,LG. It can be LT,C,RG it can be RG,C,LG it can be LT,C,RT or even a strong side of C,RG,RT or the other way. Brandon is our best and I think he and the guys that have been drafted here from C to RT all thrive with Brandon. We can upgrade LG and LT. But keeping Brandon puts us below that 3 top tier players that’s not good for us especially with our focus on finding our QB and more then likely developing him

This is an interesting theory, the “three top tier linemen” theory. I’m going to think about it for a while, but at first glance it sorta seems to hold up. 

The two OLs I usually use as a baseline are the Dallas and Philly groups that we’ve had in our division over the past 5ish years. Those teams have had awfully close to 4 top tier guys at times, although La’el Collins might be a stretch for being at that level. When we look at the Cleveland group, with the emergence of Teller this season, they’re probably the closest I’ve seen to having 5 top-tier guys across the board. Bitonio has always been great, Tretter is rock solid, Teller is a beast, and Conklin is also terrific. When your very good, top-10 pick LT might well be the “weak link” on your line, that’s a pretty remarkable group. We have some work left to make that jump.

Anyway, I digress. I agree with your overall point here, which is that letting Scherff walk likely sets us back more than it helps us. I’m absolutely not thrilled about giving $15M+ to an injury prone guard — but I think overpaying him is still better than losing him for nothing. 

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The other question is, if we’re basically bringing the band back from last season (Lucas, Schweitzer, Roullier, Scherff, Moses), how do we get better? They were decent to solid as a unit, but I think we could use a step forward in run blocking in particular.

I don’t think we can afford to pay another guard in FA after paying Roullier/Scherff big money, and I don’t really love what’s left in FA for LT. We’ve talked a fair amount about the OT draft options, but if Sewell and Darrisaw are gone as expected, do we love any of these other draft OTs enough to take at 19? Cosmi is OT3 for me at this point, and I’m just not sure about that one. Do we need to be considering pulling the trigger on a top OG (Davis, Smith, Vera-Tucker) to upgrade on Schweitzer? This remains the trickiest question on the roster, aside from QB obviously, for me. 

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3 hours ago, e16bball said:

This is an interesting theory, the “three top tier linemen” theory. I’m going to think about it for a while, but at first glance it sorta seems to hold up. 

The two OLs I usually use as a baseline are the Dallas and Philly groups that we’ve had in our division over the past 5ish years. Those teams have had awfully close to 4 top tier guys at times, although La’el Collins might be a stretch for being at that level. When we look at the Cleveland group, with the emergence of Teller this season, they’re probably the closest I’ve seen to having 5 top-tier guys across the board. Bitonio has always been great, Tretter is rock solid, Teller is a beast, and Conklin is also terrific. When your very good, top-10 pick LT might well be the “weak link” on your line, that’s a pretty remarkable group. We have some work left to make that jump.

Anyway, I digress. I agree with your overall point here, which is that letting Scherff walk likely sets us back more than it helps us. I’m absolutely not thrilled about giving $15M+ to an injury prone guard — but I think overpaying him is still better than losing him for nothing. 

Trust me that last part hurts me as well but I think the effort on the line is maximized here by coaching and when a players bought in the tend to have less of the lesser injuries that cost them time. But hopefully he holds up because when Brandon is on the field this unit is head and shoulders better and I felt that way even Trents last 2 years on the field. But I hope that theory matches the top units as you said with Cleveland and Dallas they have really allocated a lot into the OL and RB position and collectively on the offense through FA and the draft due to the stockpile of picks they had to make a few years back. But when I think to the more effective units especially the run first teams they’ve done best with a trio of guys you’d atleast heard of and a variant of two others either being developed or more stop gap but lined up beside a stud.

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3 hours ago, e16bball said:

The other question is, if we’re basically bringing the band back from last season (Lucas, Schweitzer, Roullier, Scherff, Moses), how do we get better? They were decent to solid as a unit, but I think we could use a step forward in run blocking in particular.

I don’t think we can afford to pay another guard in FA after paying Roullier/Scherff big money, and I don’t really love what’s left in FA for LT. We’ve talked a fair amount about the OT draft options, but if Sewell and Darrisaw are gone as expected, do we love any of these other draft OTs enough to take at 19? Cosmi is OT3 for me at this point, and I’m just not sure about that one. Do we need to be considering pulling the trigger on a top OG (Davis, Smith, Vera-Tucker) to upgrade on Schweitzer? This remains the trickiest question on the roster, aside from QB obviously, for me. 

Trust me I’m almost worried we don’t get better through addition outside the off chance LSU maybe gives us something from Charles which seems a stretch. Now I have really loved the idea of Davis in our range because that really gives us 2 guards close to the colts and I think we clearly see the one cut lanes JTaylor and co have had to run through. But I think we have to go BPA and Davis is there but I don’t know if your staring at a Waddle or some other higher rated CB you can’t chose them over Davis with the secondary needing a top flight guy or a better pass catcher because the development factor for both positions. We essentially need to get positions that can take longer to develop so around the time your paying Chase and Tez those guys should be top tier because their behind that front. 
 

But sadly maybe we don’t upgrade the trenches through addition early but I think this year is more important to get a QB or a skill players in and developing so the year after you can really tighten up the trenches which have a more instant impact generally.

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On 1/10/2021 at 2:29 PM, Vladimir L said:

money talks

 

these guys know its a business

This is still an organization that has more leaks than the Iraqi Navy, and fired multiple people less than a year ago for some pretty unscrupulous things.  The owner is also under fire for some unscrupulous things as well.  

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4 hours ago, e16bball said:

The other question is, if we’re basically bringing the band back from last season (Lucas, Schweitzer, Roullier, Scherff, Moses), how do we get better? They were decent to solid as a unit, but I think we could use a step forward in run blocking in particular.

I don’t think we can afford to pay another guard in FA after paying Roullier/Scherff big money, and I don’t really love what’s left in FA for LT. We’ve talked a fair amount about the OT draft options, but if Sewell and Darrisaw are gone as expected, do we love any of these other draft OTs enough to take at 19? Cosmi is OT3 for me at this point, and I’m just not sure about that one. Do we need to be considering pulling the trigger on a top OG (Davis, Smith, Vera-Tucker) to upgrade on Schweitzer? This remains the trickiest question on the roster, aside from QB obviously, for me. 

A lot can be said for Scherff's availability. The past three years, he's played 8, 11 and 13 games.  There is no way I can give him top guard money with the cap going down.  As you said, how do we get better, but also, how do we plan for Scherff to miss a quarter of the season, as well as potentially playing hurt?  

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11 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

A lot can be said for Scherff's availability. The past three years, he's played 8, 11 and 13 games.  There is no way I can give him top guard money with the cap going down.  As you said, how do we get better, but also, how do we plan for Scherff to miss a quarter of the season, as well as potentially playing hurt?  

1.  We don't know that the cap is going down.  I bet the NFLPA is going to throw a fit about it.  

2. You can't let an All Pro player walk for nothing.  Tagging him will just create a distraction with him not being happy about his contract situation.  If we were going to move on from Scherff it should have been last year.  We basically have to pay him IMO.  

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Bottom line is this organization needs to start taking care of its own players, before any big ticket free agents come here. Over the years a lot of good players walked out of the building. Players around the league must see that and a feeling of, if they don’t take care of their own guys why would they take care of me, must set in. Scherrf’s deal needs to get done, hopefully it isn’t a killer financially. You could have all the comraderie amoungst the players in the world, but the front office need to do it’s part with the checkbook in order for the league to start taking this team seriously. 

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1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

1.  We don't know that the cap is going down.  I bet the NFLPA is going to throw a fit about it.   

Even if the cap just stays the same that is the same as it going down because every team expects it to go up in their long term plans.

1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

2. You can't let an All Pro player walk for nothing.  Tagging him will just create a distraction with him not being happy about his contract situation.  If we were going to move on from Scherff it should have been last year.  We basically have to pay him IMO.  

Yes it would have been better to sign him long term last year.  But the way I see it, is he wanted top money and it was hard to give it to him with the injuries.  So we used that 5th year option and then franchise tagged him.  In his case, you have to use the tag as a health try out.  He failed it.  So I don't think we should kick ourselves if we let him walk.  I agree that the franchise tag should be avoided, but you shouldn't throw good money after bad.  

Assuming he wants a 4-5 year deal, how much are you willing to pay him on average per year?  14? 15? 16?

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1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

1.  We don't know that the cap is going down.  I bet the NFLPA is going to throw a fit about it.  

2. You can't let an All Pro player walk for nothing.  Tagging him will just create a distraction with him not being happy about his contract situation.  If we were going to move on from Scherff it should have been last year.  We basically have to pay him IMO.  

This is my take as well. I’ve been advocating trying to trade him for a good while now, mostly for the reason @naptownskinsfan laid out: I don’t know if you can win while paying a guard $15M a year, and I certainly don’t know whether you can do it with an injury-prone guard. 

But I do feel pretty strongly that you can’t win when you let your best players walk away for nothing. And if we are correct that Rivera won’t be the type to wade heavily into FA for other teams’ players, then the cap space we’d save by not paying Scherff isn’t going to mean that much anyway. There may come a time when we’ll need that space for our own players, but that likely won’t come until at least 2-3 years from now. We should be in position to get out of the contract at that point if we need to (and he’s still occupying the injured list on a yearly basis).

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