wackywabbit Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Wait... so the actual thread that was discussing this "take" before it was a popular opinion get locked, but now that it's blatantly obvious fact we are allowed to have an open circle-J about what everyone already accepts now? Booooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 On 1/9/2021 at 10:17 PM, VanS said: So the narrative now is that Josh Allen improved dramatically rather than folks admitting you were wrong for doubting him? SMH. Anybody who watched Allen closely the last 2 years could have seen this coming. His talent was obvious. And the fact he was carrying a subpar supporting cast was clear as day. All he needed was a little help. And he got that with Stefon Diggs. Who is a really good WR but not a generational type talent bound for the Hall of Fame. Diggs breakout season this year is more about how great Allen is than him being the best WR in the game. The two aren't mutually exclusive. He had A LOT of work to do coming into the league, and it's rare to see this drastic of an improvement, regardless of who is put around him. I seem to recall most of his "detractors" saying that he needed to improve, not that he couldn't improve, wouldn't improve, or that he sucked. From his Wyoming days to now, the narrative is that he improved dramatically because that's exactly what happened. It wouldn't have been shocking to see him be another "toolsy" QB who never put it all together. His rookie season was pretty blah and his horrible mechanics were on full display. His improvement says more about his coaches than him in some ways. I think the biggest take away is that teams really do need to re-evaluate their strategies with QBs who don't come out with Manning-like refinement. McDermott and co should absolutely be taking a victory lap right now as the whole Peterman thing was almost an early end to the regime. Either way, I don't recall many people saying he was awful or rooting against him as you are insinuating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, wackywabbit said: Wait... so the actual thread that was discussing this "take" before it was a popular opinion get locked, but now that it's blatantly obvious fact we are allowed to have an open circle-J about what everyone already accepts now? Booooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Meh, Allen had raw talent and is having a tremendous season while continuing to improve. I don't know that "elite" is warranted quite yet, though it's trending that way. Regardless, we all know VanS likes to spitball. He probably still believes Josh Dobbs is the best QB from his class. Identifying a raw talent and them succeeding to high levels is less than a 50/50 in the NFL. He'll undoubtedly toot his own horn from now to the end of time by accusing people of saying Josh Allen was a terrible QB prospect when that was never the case, but whatevs. If someone pans out, he's quick to call himself a savant. If they don't, he uses the "they just haven't had a chance" excuse (presumably good until they retire and he can label them a "best that never was"). Catch-22 logic at it's finest is why that thread got locked. I, for one, commend the mods for locking it as it's entire purpose brought nothing of value to the board as it wasn't a discussion of fact, rather a hypothesis being used as a giant "I told you so" before anything could possibly be reasoned otherwise. Edited January 18, 2021 by ronjon1990 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronjon1990 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) *copied post Edited January 18, 2021 by ronjon1990 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan_W Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 don't forget the 2017 & 2018 threads Josh Allen [QB; Wyoming] - NFL Draft - FootballsFuture.com Josh Allen - NFL Draft - FootballsFuture.com I'd be pumped if I was a Bills fan, 13-3 and beat a bunch of good teams looking real good JA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, ronjon1990 said: The two aren't mutually exclusive. He had A LOT of work to do coming into the league, and it's rare to see this drastic of an improvement, regardless of who is put around him. I seem to recall most of his "detractors" saying that he needed to improve, not that he couldn't improve, wouldn't improve, or that he sucked. From his Wyoming days to now, the narrative is that he improved dramatically because that's exactly what happened. It wouldn't have been shocking to see him be another "toolsy" QB who never put it all together. [B]His rookie season was pretty blah and his horrible mechanics were on full display. [/b]His improvement says more about his coaches than him in some ways. I think the biggest take away is that teams really do need to re-evaluate their strategies with QBs who don't come out with Manning-like refinement. McDermott and co should absolutely be taking a victory lap right now as the whole Peterman thing was almost an early end to the regime. Either way, I don't recall many people saying he was awful or rooting against him as you are insinuating. Well I never saw a "blah" rookie season. Did you forget he broke records as a runner? I forgot the exact numbers but he had back to back games with 90+ rushing yards (or something of the sort) that had never been done before by a rookie QB. His yards per carry and his rushing TDs were higher than Lamar Jackson. Sure his passing numbers weren't great but then again look at who he was throwing to. His #1 WR that year was an undrafted second year player who I believe is no longer in the league. Those who just look at numbers might be surprised or shocked by Josh Allen's "improvement". I wasn't because I watched his tape and evaluated him based on the talent around him. I actually saw that he had no receivers as a rookie so I didn't care if his passing numbers were bad. I focused on what he did right. Which was using his elite athleticism to win games. Then in 2019 when his weapons improved slightly, his passing numbers improved in kind. That is why I even predicted he could have an MVP type explosion this year because I knew how bad his supporting cast was and how much of a difference a legit #1 WR like Stefon Diggs could make for a QB with Josh Allen's talent level. I don't think fans put as much emphasis on circumstance as they should when evaluating players. Just because a QB has statistical success in the short term on a loaded team (i.e. Baker Mayfield this year) does not mean he's actually good. Just as if a QB struggles in the short term with no talent around him (i.e. Josh Allen as a rookie) does not mean he's actually bad. I believe if you gave rookie Josh Allen the Bills roster of this season, he has a rookie season for the ages. The only reason his numbers were "blah" early on was because his supporting casts were terrible. Edited January 18, 2021 by VanS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) For the record I believe numbers are fine in evaluating players over the LONG TERM (i.e. an entire career). Because by that point circumstances will even out. But in the short term you can see a wide divergence between a player's talent level and their statistical production. Edited January 18, 2021 by VanS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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