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Raiders hire Gus Bradley as DC


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1 hour ago, Geezy said:

no one said theyd all of a sudden become great players. Just that guys can be placed in better situations. Ferrell can be a base end, and Crosby would be better served as a pash rush specialist, combined, theyd make for a quality 1/2 of our starting DE's. We can bring in a guys like Melvin Ingram, and add a DE to groom in the draft. 

That's exactly my point. They won't become great players. The goal now is try to give them a role. That's not good enough. They screwed up several top picks on defense. They got zero impact from all those picks. Thus, the defense sucks as a result.

1 hour ago, Geezy said:

Yes, were going to have to hit on a some moves this year, but it isnt impossible and with our offense we dont need a top 10 defense, just one that doesnt completely blow, similar to KC

KC was 11 in points allowed. 7 other playoff teams were top 10 in points allowed.

Only 2 teams, the Titans (24) and Browns (21) made the playoffs ranked in the 20's.

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17 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

That's exactly my point. They won't become great players. The goal now is try to give them a role. That's not good enough. They screwed up several top picks on defense. They got zero impact from all those picks. Thus, the defense sucks as a result.

KC was 11 in points allowed. 7 other playoff teams were top 10 in points allowed.

Only 2 teams, the Titans (24) and Browns (21) made the playoffs ranked in the 20's.

youre not always going to hit homeruns in the draft, but the good teams develop players into roles, and great players put them over the top. my point is we have many role types, and need a couple pieces to put it all together under the right DC. I believe this discussion started when you said we needed a complete overhaul, and I disagreed. 

Guenther ran an overly complicated Defense, with bunch of new pieces and basically no offseason. Once we simplified the defense guys like Littleton looked better. We had a lot of 1st and 2nd year players playing huge roles, and maybe they wont become superstars but they have some goods to work with. 

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47 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

True defensive talents, the ones that end up in being great, show up regardless. I've not see anything from this crop of young players that has me excited to say.... this kid is going to be great. 

I've had enough of this blind optimism that Raider fans live with. Every player is just sitting on potential and the coaches have to bring it out. Every season, for 18 years now. 

And adding a great player only happens via trade. Becuase they are a middle of the pack team who won't pick high enough in the draft to grab a great player. 

What your hoping for is someone falls into their laps. But it's time for Gruden/Mayock to get real serious about how they are going to get some serious talent on that side of the ball. Going to take a big splash of a move. 

If you role into 2021 with Ferrell, Crosby, 32 year old Melvin Ingram and a rookie... this pass rush and defense won't improve enough to get them a winning season. 

some of those talents take time to develop. Nnamdi was dog **** his first 3 years in the league. The good teams draft and develop. Weve been trying to make a splash for the same 18 years you mention. Moss, Carson Palmer, DMC, Richard Seymour etc. We need to develop players at some point. 

Great players are picked in the back half of the 1st round every year. Teams like the Ravens and Steelers clean up every year, because they have a scheme they stay true to, draft players to fit what they do, and develop them. Meanwhile, the Jags make a splash every offseason only to release every one in two seasons and pick top 3(and still dont draft great players)

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1 hour ago, Geezy said:

youre not always going to hit homeruns in the draft, but the good teams develop players into roles, and great players put them over the top. my point is we have many role types, and need a couple pieces to put it all together under the right DC. I believe this discussion started when you said we needed a complete overhaul, and I disagreed. 

Guenther ran an overly complicated Defense, with bunch of new pieces and basically no offseason. Once we simplified the defense guys like Littleton looked better. We had a lot of 1st and 2nd year players playing huge roles, and maybe they wont become superstars but they have some goods to work with. 

Who's going to rush the passer? It all starts there for this defense. What players on this roster can step up and consistently get pressure?

What legitimate FA can you add to get pressure? Who can you take at 17 to u

I'm saying this defense is a 3 year rebuild and overhaul at key spots before it can get to the point the Raiders can be a competitor. 

Unless they either A) Trade for a great DLine player B) Hit a home run on a unlikely draft pick or C) A young player has an unforeseen turnaround in development

 

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1 hour ago, Geezy said:

some of those talents take time to develop. Nnamdi was dog **** his first 3 years in the league. The good teams draft and develop. Weve been trying to make a splash for the same 18 years you mention. Moss, Carson Palmer, DMC, Richard Seymour etc. We need to develop players at some point. 

You have to DRAFT well first. Stop reaching on needs and draft player with some traits to develop as they did with Mack.

The Raiders are among the worst teams at drafting defense and have been for 2 decades. 

 

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17 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

You have to DRAFT well first. Stop reaching on needs and draft player with some traits to develop as they did with Mack.

The Raiders are among the worst teams at drafting defense and have been for 2 decades. 

 

It's a weird interplay of coach/GM issues. Reggie went BPA and often failed at it because he took cute small school guys. Mayock goes with need and takes big school guys, but sometimes ignores obvious upgrades if it's "what the coaches want". Because Guenther has changed, i have some hope that Bradley will be a little more flexible with picking good talent, not extreme scheme dependent players.

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I disagree with BP on this one. I don't believe the defense is in need of a complete overhaul/rebuild. I agree with the principle of needing a impact player on the DL though. 

But I disagree we will regularly be picking too late to find one of those types of guys. The NFL is full of high end pass rushers that we're taken in the middle to end of the first round or even later. Guys like Fletcher Cox, Justin Houston, TJ Watt, Chris Jones, Danielle Hunter, Chandler Jones, Geno Atkins, Dee Ford, Frank Clark, Jason Pierre-Paul, Cameron Jordan, Calais Campbell, Demarcus Lawrence, Yannick Ngakoue, Michael Bennett, Ryan Kerrigan, Carlos Dunlap, etc are examples of some of the best pass rushers in recent memory that were drafted anywhere from the middle of the first round to the second or third round. Heck the two best defensive players overall (IMO) this generation in JJ Watt and Aaron Donald were drafted 11th and 13th respectively. 

Point being, you can find high impact, all pro caliber players at any position throughout the draft. But you can certainly find blue chip, defensive altering DL talent in the middle of the first round. The question is whether the front office can identify those guys and pull the trigger. Not a lack of them being available because we will be picking too late. 

Edited by Mr Raider
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1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

Who's going to rush the passer? It all starts there for this defense. What players on this roster can step up and consistently get pressure?

What legitimate FA can you add to get pressure? Who can you take at 17 to u

I'm saying this defense is a 3 year rebuild and overhaul at key spots before it can get to the point the Raiders can be a competitor. 

Unless they either A) Trade for a great DLine player B) Hit a home run on a unlikely draft pick or C) A young player has an unforeseen turnaround in development

 

We don’t need a top 5 defense, we just need them to not completely suck. 

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4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Who's going to rush the passer? It all starts there for this defense. What players on this roster can step up and consistently get pressure?

What legitimate FA can you add to get pressure? Who can you take at 17 to u

I'm saying this defense is a 3 year rebuild and overhaul at key spots before it can get to the point the Raiders can be a competitor. 

Unless they either A) Trade for a great DLine player B) Hit a home run on a unlikely draft pick or C) A young player has an unforeseen turnaround in development

 

Fletcher Cox is a player who it's possible the eagles will consider floating in a trade, or at least we should inquire about. Malik Jackson as well. 

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Lot of unnecessary doom and gloom regarding having the 17th pick. You can certainly find a difference maker at that point in the first. I think we’ve ****ed up enough high picks to know there’s no guarantees here. 
 

do I have confidence in them to find a difference maker at 17? No, but they also took Clelin Ferrell at number 4. Poor drafting regardless of draft position is the issue here. They aren’t trading for any elite talent either. 

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12 hours ago, Geezy said:

no one said theyd all of a sudden become great players. Just that guys can be placed in better situations. Ferrell can be a base end, and Crosby would be better served as a pash rush specialist, combined, theyd make for a quality 1/2 of our starting DE's. We can bring in a guys like Melvin Ingram, and add a DE to groom in the draft. Yes, were going to have to hit on a some moves this year, but it isnt impossible and with our offense we dont need a top 10 defense, just one that doesnt completely blow, similar to KC. 

From a purely positive outlook....... I'm intrigued to see how David Irving looks after a full offseason. He's not a Khalil Mack obviously but one thing he can do is create splash plays and disrupt at end and inside. He's versatile and someone who if used effectively can make a difference.

With him, Ferrell hopefully improving again and having a full season (very disrupted this year), Crosby possibly improving a little and add in a FA like a Ryan Kerrigan or Melvin Ingram and a couple draft picks at DT we may have a better albeit not good DL. We've been here way too many times before but I think I'm a little optimistic right now.

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11 hours ago, Geezy said:

youre not always going to hit homeruns in the draft, but the good teams develop players into roles, and great players put them over the top. my point is we have many role types, and need a couple pieces to put it all together under the right DC. I believe this discussion started when you said we needed a complete overhaul, and I disagreed. 

Guenther ran an overly complicated Defense, with bunch of new pieces and basically no offseason. Once we simplified the defense guys like Littleton looked better. We had a lot of 1st and 2nd year players playing huge roles, and maybe they wont become superstars but they have some goods to work with. 

I've seen this said a number of times about the complexity of Guenther's system and don't doubt that its true but I'm genuinely curious what about his D made it so complicated?

I'm certainly no expert and very possibly missed a lot of nuances etc. But I didn't see any complex blitz concepts or coverages that fooled the opposition when watching us. I saw mostly a base 4 rush with the odd, predictable stunt and a few twists and mostly off man coverage with little press and a few zones and our patented 8 yards off coverage on 3rd and 5.

Did we do stuff like zone one half and man the other? Pass guys off in coverage in an unusual way to fool the O? I barely saw the highly touted double A Gap blitz........

Quite possibly its just me missing the subtle stuff but can anyone elaborate on this?? 😁😁

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39 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I've seen this said a number of times about the complexity of Guenther's system and don't doubt that its true but I'm genuinely curious what about his D made it so complicated?

I'm certainly no expert and very possibly missed a lot of nuances etc. But I didn't see any complex blitz concepts or coverages that fooled the opposition when watching us. I saw mostly a base 4 rush with the odd, predictable stunt and a few twists and mostly off man coverage with little press and a few zones and our patented 8 yards off coverage on 3rd and 5.

Did we do stuff like zone one half and man the other? Pass guys off in coverage in an unusual way to fool the O? I barely saw the highly touted double A Gap blitz........

Quite possibly its just me missing the subtle stuff but can anyone elaborate on this?? 😁😁

I don't know what @Geezy was referencing but since PG was fired we've seen multiple reports about the amount of information defensive players had to process within each game plan. I think it was Will Compton who said it was quite a lot more than he has been used to. Fair to say that's going to be complicated when most players haven't been in the league very long or are new to the team.

https://www.raidersbeat.com/will-compton-explained-why-the-raiders-made-the-right-call-in-firing-paul-guenther/

You can read a bit about it here.

Edited by oakdb36
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10 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

I don't know what @Geezy was referencing but since PG was fired we've seen multiple reports about the amount of information defensive players had to process within each game plan. I think it was Will Compton who said it was quite a lot more than he has been used to. Fair to say that's going to be complicated when most players haven't been in the league very long or are new to the team.

https://www.raidersbeat.com/will-compton-explained-why-the-raiders-made-the-right-call-in-firing-paul-guenther/

You can read a bit about it here.

Really interesting read, thank you @oakdb36 👍 

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10 hours ago, Mr Raider said:

I disagree with BP on this one. I don't believe the defense is in need of a complete overhaul/rebuild. I agree with the principle of needing a impact player on the DL though. 

But I disagree we will regularly be picking too late to find one of those types of guys. The NFL is full of high end pass rushers that we're taken in the middle to end of the first round or even later. Guys like Fletcher Cox, Justin Houston, TJ Watt, Chris Jones, Danielle Hunter, Chandler Jones, Geno Atkins, Dee Ford, Frank Clark, Jason Pierre-Paul, Cameron Jordan, Calais Campbell, Demarcus Lawrence, Yannick Ngakoue, Michael Bennett, Ryan Kerrigan, Carlos Dunlap, etc are examples of some of the best pass rushers in recent memory that were drafted anywhere from the middle of the first round to the second or third round. Heck the two best defensive players overall (IMO) this generation in JJ Watt and Aaron Donald were drafted 11th and 13th respectively. 

Point being, you can find high impact, all pro caliber players at any position throughout the draft. But you can certainly find blue chip, defensive altering DL talent in the middle of the first round. The question is whether the front office can identify those guys and pull the trigger. Not a lack of them being available because we will be picking too late. 

This is what I said. You hope to catch lightning in a bottle with you draft picks. Those guys you mentioned are the one offs in a draft class typically that you hope you find among the countless JAGs and busts 

And when is the last time the Raiders hit on a defensive draft pick not named Mack? It's not like this organization has a history of draft great on defense. And Gruden/Mayock have proven downright miserably drafting defense early thus far.

Yes you can find these players. But no, it's not a given. It's far more likely you miss on a player. So we are back to blind optimism, pinning your hopes this organization can pull a rabbit out of a hat. 

And I disagree... I think they need to get better players at DE, DT, SS, FS and CB before this defense can be competitive in the AFC.

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