Marty Hurney hired as WFT GM

[MikeT14]

Just now, MikeT14 said:

It's also one name across 13 seasons (and probably, what, 60 something picks)? Every Carolina fan is reiterating he doesn't hit on his picks past the first round. 

Seriously, go look at this list. It's not great. He found SOME gems, but most do. Dig through the others though, they weren't even contributors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Panthers_draft_history 

Hardy, Anderson, Mathis, Norman, but my God the rest of that list... 

 

 

[MKnight82]

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Don't go there. The fact that I'm not happy with this move is indicative that I care about this team. You think differently than me on this subject? That's cool. Doesn't mean I've a right to tell you to stop rooting for the team. Or vice versa.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said stop rooting for the team.  I was asking why you would root for the team if you think they're always going to fail?  That's a question not a demand.  

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

I'm tired of the people who think every move is gold after only one iteration.  I want to see sustained results before I see that the franchise has been turned around.

I can't think of a single person on this forum that says every move they make is gold.  I can think of many posters who say every move they make is a mistake.  

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Nope. Has nothing to do with having more fun with a mock draft. But I thank you for the strawman.

I was poking fun at you rooting for us to lose.  

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

I've been consistent in what I want. I want what's best long-term for the team. IMHO, the only potential long-term benefit we got from losing that playoff game was to see Heinecke in action. That's it. 

And we've talked about this 1000 times already.  You don't see the improvement in culture by winning that I do.  We just don't agree here.  You want high draft picks.  Let's just move on.

 

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Notice that I haven't:

1. Questioned your fandom/loyalty
2. Ascribed bad motives to your points of view

You seem to be reading my posts in a way they were not intended.  Because I don't see how I did either of these.  

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

I've simply state where I disagree. And I've done it on this open forum that we use to discuss football in general, and this team in particular. Not everyone is going to agree with you about things.

Yes, but whenever someone posts something positive about this team they get jumped by all of the debby downers.  

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

And you don't get to tell them to stop rooting for the team because you can't handle someone else having a different view.

I don't see how I ever did this? 

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

It's called an open forum. We all get to have our say. I haven't attacked anyone personally. I've argued my points, at times, as gently and vociferously as you have

How have I attacked anyone?  

13 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

You taking my views for the best way to go forward for this franchise as personal attacks of "crapping on the fans..." is not my problem. It's yours.

I'm sorry but how else am I supposed to take your prior two posts?  You crapped over my entire post just talking about how the organization has improved ethically and morally.  That isn't really a debate, its night and day different and honestly was the biggest problem this organization had.  Then you followed it up preaching with a story about how I'm somehow blinded because I'm not seeing how our improvement is so mediocre.  It came off really aggressive like you were talking down to me.  I'm a 38 year old man who's been rooting for this team his whole life.  I've been through all this before many times, through all the coaches, through all the GMs.  I'm not blinded by anything.  My posts and opinions are completely rationalized and based on experience with this team.  This time IS DIFFERENT to me.  We are making LEGITIMATE improvements.  You may see 1 tick on the volume dial for you, but to me it was a complete flip to the other end of the spectrum for me.  

[e16bball]

2 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Josh Norman... not too shabby 

He was GM there for like 15 seasons. You really have to do better than one late-round guy (who you let walk for free after 38 starts on his rookie contract) in a decade and a half. 

And in fairness to him, it is more than that. Will Witherspoon, Travelle Wharton, Evan Mathis, and Charles Johnson were all good 3rd rounders. And they found some late-round values in guys like Captain Munnerlyn, Greg Hardy, Joe Berger, and Geoff Hangartner, in addition to Norman. But they pretty much whiffed on the entirety of the later rounds in his second stint.

There’s really just no way to compare his draft record to what we’ve accomplished here over the past couple seasons and view this as an upgrade. It’s pretty cut and dried, honestly. Maybe the process has been poor and we’ve just been getting lucky here — but that’s a lot of success throughout the draft to just decide to move on from.

One of the things that I have not been impressed with from Rivera is that I’m not seeing a ton of desire/ability to make it work with talented people, even if you might not be fully on the same page with them. I really thought he’d find a way to get Trent back into the fold, and that never materialized. At all. Trent is kind of a nutcase, so maybe that just would never have worked out. But now the fact that he has a group drafting as well as our group has been, and he can’t find a way — or doesn’t even want to find a way — to keep that intact, that’s very concerning to me. 

[aceinthehouse]

We've been terrible at hitting on 2nd Rd picks without Hurney...

Not sure why you guys are scared now...

Maybe that can change with some extra eyes in the building.

Some of you need to toke on a bong or pipe & chill...relax a little. Damn....

This team is trending up & I'm loving it. Can't wait to see who we add in FA & the draft.

[Skinsin2013]

Are some of your really pretending his draft classes have been anything but below average? 

[naptownskinsfan]

44 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

GM's don't groom their replacements. If so, this would be the first time that I can remember it happening. Can it happen your way? Maybe. But right now my money is on the 2 decades of this organization screwing things up.

One way to potentially keep Kyle a bit longer is to do the bolded. We agree there. But still, if I'm Kyle, I know the writing is on the wall, and I'm taking my talents elsewhere. Now, you are correct that the job is more than just being a draft ace. But to not interview him? Like I said, that's bad pool no matter where you work.

Ozzie Newsome did it with Eric DeCosta. Big difference for DeCosta is knowing he would get the wheel of a pretty successful franchise where the owner stays out of it. Here it’s Dan Snyder, and we all know how each story ends.

[lavar703]

“But Kyle isn’t getting looks elsewhere” is such a bad faith argument as well. McVay wasn’t getting looks elsewhere either until he did and we lost him. LaFluer wasn’t getting looks elsewhere until he did but we had already stupidly let him leave at that point. Same with Schneider and Baalke to a lesser degree. This franchise has a history of allowing talented people to walk away and then throwing their hands up in total disbelief as that person succeeds and we fail. But please, this time it will be different because “omg Kyle Smith didn’t even get an interview” lol

[Thaiphoon]

17 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

You're putting words in my mouth.  I never said stop rooting for the team.  I was asking why you would root for the team if you think they're always going to fail?  That's a question not a demand.  

Fair enough. However, it's the same question that goes hand in hand with those telling people they should stop rooting. It's the same types of questions that aren't really interrogatories but instead are demands. But given that you've explained it was simply a question, I'll concede the point.

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I can't think of a single person on this forum that says every move they make is gold.  I can think of many posters who say every move they make is a mistake. 

A bit of hyperbole on my part? Yes. But my larger point still stands that from my vantage point, people standing on the small pebble of "we won the division" and "Rivera turned things around because he's not Allen" is taking small things and thinking that they are much larger and more consequential than they really are. That's what I was referring to.

Quote

 I was poking fun at you rooting for us to lose.  

Yup. And each game, as I watched, I cheered for us to win and cheered each point we scored. However, I was okay with us losing if it put us in a better position to stock the team. And I preferred it to going 7-9 and losing in a playoff game and losing 9 spots each round where a player we might covet goes elsewhere.

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And we've talked about this 1000 times already.  You don't see the improvement in culture by winning that I do.  We just don't agree here.  You want high draft picks.  Let's just move on.

Correct. I won't see it until it actually changes. Until then, I want more flexibility for our guys come draft day. I'd rather us have the chance to draft or pass on a guy rather than having a Peyton Manning (just an example - it could be any position) go off the board because we won one too many meaningless games.

Quote

You seem to be reading my posts in a way they were not intended.  Because I don't see how I did either of these.  

Well, telling me that I'd rather us lose just to have more fun mocking a draft and "crapping on fans who want us to succeed by winning games" isn't questioning my loyalty/fandom or ascribing bad motives? Perhaps that isn't what you meant to say, but that is how it is received.  

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Yes, but whenever someone posts something positive about this team they get jumped by all of the debby downers

Haven't had much to be cheerful about these past 20 years. Those debbie downers will turn around once we see sustained effort and direction in a positive manner. I'm sorry, as someone looking at this as objectively as I can, this entire hiring process just screams "No" to me. 

Quote

I'm sorry but how else am I supposed to take your prior two posts?  You crapped over my entire post just talking about how the organization has improved ethically and morally.  That isn't really a debate, its night and day different and honestly was the biggest problem this organization had. Then you followed it up preaching with a story about how I'm somehow blinded because I'm not seeing how our improvement is so mediocre.  It came off really aggressive like you were talking down to me.  I'm a 38 year old man who's been rooting for this team his whole life.  I've been through all this before many times, through all the coaches, through all the GMs.  I'm not blinded by anything.  My posts and opinions are completely rationalized and based on experience with this team.  This time IS DIFFERENT to me.  We are making LEGITIMATE improvements.  You may see 1 tick on the volume dial for you, but to me it was a complete flip to the other end of the spectrum for me.  

I agreed the improvement was made. I then followed it up in that post to show that based upon actual experience under Snyder, I can't see how anyone can state that we've 180 degrees changed directions. Look, we've been here before in each one of the areas that you pointed to (which I took the time to discuss). My point is that I want to see it sustained. We have had spurts and starts for 20+ years now where each little inkling of a change that looks positive, we get fans screaming "Snyder finally gets it!" "He's stayed out of the decision room", etc...

...and then we get the owner basically drafting Dwayne Haskins. 

So until that goes the way of the Dodo bird for a long while (and for good), I'm not going to drop my guard that this team has turned a corner. I'm glad you think we've have (turned a corner) and that this hiring process and coach-centric organization is good for our team. I'm not convinced due to my years of watching this team under Snyder AND the years prior to it under better owners (as well as my own experience in how to run large organizations). And until I am, I'm going to express my disagreement with you where I differ and agreement with you when we agree. I'm not "crapping on" your posts if I disagree. And I certainly don't care any less about the team either. 

 

[Thaiphoon]

15 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Ozzie Newsome did it with Eric DeCosta. Big difference for DeCosta is knowing he would get the wheel of a pretty successful franchise where the owner stays out of it. Here it’s Dan Snyder, and we all know how each story ends.

Thanks. My apologies though. I should've clarified. Ozzie was already there and wanting to retire. At that point it makes sense to ensure his legacy by grooming the guy replacing him so he doesn't screw it all up.

I'm talking about hiring a guy from the outside to "come in and groom your replacement so we can let you go in a few years". 

[Thaiphoon]

34 minutes ago, aceinthehouse said:

We've been terrible at hitting on 2nd Rd picks without Hurney...

Not sure why you guys are scared now...

Maybe that can change with some extra eyes in the building.

Ace. I love you man. But maybe realize that the draft has more than just the 2nd round? Huh? Kyle has been doing quite well in the draft in all the rounds. 

So maybe it would've been best to bring Hurney in as a 2nd round consultant?

 

Quote

Some of you need to toke on a bong or pipe & chill...relax a little. Damn....

Dude. You're just forcing me to do this. 

Consider this an official warning.

[turtle28]

35 minutes ago, e16bball said:

He was GM there for like 15 seasons. You really have to do better than one late-round guy (who you let walk for free after 38 starts on his rookie contract) in a decade and a half. 

And in fairness to him, it is more than that. Will Witherspoon, Travelle Wharton, Evan Mathis, and Charles Johnson were all good 3rd rounders. And they found some late-round values in guys like Captain Munnerlyn, Greg Hardy, Joe Berger, and Geoff Hangartner, in addition to Norman. But they pretty much whiffed on the entirety of the later rounds in his second stint.

There’s really just no way to compare his draft record to what we’ve accomplished here over the past couple seasons and view this as an upgrade. It’s pretty cut and dried, honestly. Maybe the process has been poor and we’ve just been getting lucky here — but that’s a lot of success throughout the draft to just decide to move on from.

One of the things that I have not been impressed with from Rivera is that I’m not seeing a ton of desire/ability to make it work with talented people, even if you might not be fully on the same page with them. I really thought he’d find a way to get Trent back into the fold, and that never materialized. At all. Trent is kind of a nutcase, so maybe that just would never have worked out. But now the fact that he has a group drafting as well as our group has been, and he can’t find a way — or doesn’t even want to find a way — to keep that intact, that’s very concerning to me. 

That was just off the top of my head but, I’d say drafting a 5th rounder who becomes All-Pro and helps lead your team to a Super Bowl appearance is pretty impressive. That’s something Washington hasn’t done since the 80s.

So, I just went over his drafts:

2002: Julius Peppers (DE), DeShaun Foster (RB), Will Witherspoon (OLB)

2003: Jordan Gross (LT)

2004: Chris Gamble (CB/WR), Keary Colbert (WR), Travelle Wharton (RT)

2005: Thomas Davis (OLB), Evan Mathis (OG), Javon Haye didn’t do much in Carolina but became a good DT for the Bucs

2006: DeAngelo Williams (RB), James Anderson (SLB), Will Montgomery (C) was just a back up C/G for Carolina but became a starter for Washington & then Denver

2007: Jon Beason (MLB), Ryan Khalil (C), Charles Johnson (RDE), Dante Rosario (solid blocking back up TE)

2008: Jonathan Stewart (RB), Dan Connor (back up MLB), Geoff Schwartz (G/RT), Gary Barnidge(TE) back up in Carolina but became a pro bowl TE in Cleveland 

2009: Captain Munnerlyn (CB)

2010: Brandon LaFell (WR), Greg Hardy (DE), Robert McClain (CB)

2011: Cam Newton (CB), Sione Fua (back up NT)

Also traded for Greg Olsen

2012: Luke Kuechly (MLB), Amini Silatou (G), Josh Norman (CB)

2017: Christian McCaffery (RB), Curtis Samuel (WR), Alex Armah (FB), Harrison Butker (K) obviously didn’t make the team because they had signed Gano after we cut him and Gano was great for them but Butker is one of the best kickers in the NFL right now.

2018: DJ Moore (WR), Donte Jackson (CB)

2019: Brian Burns (DE)

2020: Derrick Brown (NT), Yetur Gross-Matos (DE), Jeremy Chinn (SS)

Again, not too shabby.

[MKnight82]

You guys are acting like General Manager of the Panthers and General Manager of WFT are the same position.  The title is arbitrary.  He can be assigned any amount of duties that we don't know of at this time.  If he had bad drafts with the Panthers, that will be irrelevant if he isn't a major voice in the scouting and draft day decisions here.  During Rivera's end of the year press conference he talked about how tiresome the day to day administrative stuff was, it could be Hurney is here just for that.  Until we have more information about who's role is what I find it hard to grade this hire.  

[aceinthehouse]

40 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Ace. I love you man. But maybe realize that the draft has more than just the 2nd round? Huh? Kyle has been doing quite well in the draft in all the rounds. 

So maybe it would've been best to bring Hurney in as a 2nd round consultant?

 

Dude. You're just forcing me to do this. 

Consider this an official warning.

Sorry Thai, I apologize for any offense made by that comment or any other comment.

Wasn't trying to stir people's emotions.

I'll remain silent on this board, since emotions are high.

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

Already mentioned that using Norman isn't the "win" you might think it is. He was good for about 2-3 years.

Yeah bc drafting All-Pro corners in the 5th round happens all the time.

Norman was better than good IMO in 2016 then, he was only “good” in Washington in 2017 & 18 IMO. He was bad in 2019 as it was just clear he had given up and wanted out of DC.

He was good in Buffalo this year. He’s a starting corner on an team in the AFC Championship.

He was also good before his All-Pro season in 2015 in Carolina also. He started as a rookie in 2012, got hurt in 2013 but was a good starter in 2014 too.

Edited January 19, 2021 by turtle28

[turtle28]

30 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

You guys are acting like General Manager of the Panthers and General Manager of WFT are the same position.  The title is arbitrary.  He can be assigned any amount of duties that we don't know of at this time.  If he had bad drafts with the Panthers, that will be irrelevant if he isn't a major voice in the scouting and draft day decisions here.  During Rivera's end of the year press conference he talked about how tiresome the day to day administrative stuff was, it could be Hurney is here just for that.  Until we have more information about who's role is what I find it hard to grade this hire.  

Great point! Probably true that their current guy’s jobs like Kyle Smith and Stokes’s jobs won’t actually change that Hurney will just assign things, oversee the department and take a load of stuff off Rivera.

I do think people are overreacting to this signing a bit and he has a better drafting track record than I had realized.