Future QB Discussion

[HuskieBear]

2 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

I would think that SEA would require the Bears to take some of Wilson's dead money as part of the deal.

But even if they don't and assuming the Bears can make it to about 45M in cap space through cuts and restructures, that only leaves ~8M to acquire starters at DT, S, RG, RT, TE2 and then fill out the bottom of the roster.

teams cant acquire other team's dead money. that's why it's dead.

[AZBearsFan]

3 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

I would think that SEA would require the Bears to take some of Wilson's dead money as part of the deal.

But even if they don't and assuming the Bears can make it to about 45M in cap space through cuts and restructures, that only leaves ~8M to acquire starters at DT, S, RG, RT, TE2 and then fill out the bottom of the roster.

Is that not an acceptable one-year hurdle for you if it means we are getting Russell Wilson at QB? I’d sure be okay with it. There’s more we could do that I didn’t allow for either (notably, I didn’t do anything with Eddie Jackson’s deal - we could create an additional ~$7M converting 2021 base salary into a bonus, more elsewhere adding void years to the ends of deals, etc.

[JAF-N72EX]

I don't understand.  Pace wasn't fired and everyone went ape **** talking about how Pace is going to be so desperate that he's going to use future capital and money to save his job, and they freaked out about it.  But NOW some of those same fans really WANT him to do exactly that?

He didn't cave for Watson or Wentz and has not shown any desperate tendencies yet, and I thought that's what they preferred him to do, seeing as how they were assuming such and bashing him for it before the fact?

Furthermore, many fans want Pace gone and will literally go out of their way to bash him for breathing wrong, but they want him to sign a marquee QB that will essentially save his job.

What the hell am I missing here? This is what I mean about some Bears fans being so fickle.

 

 

[Heinz D.]

9 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I don't understand.  Pace wasn't fired and everyone went ape **** talking about how Pace is going to be so desperate that he's going to use future capital and money to save his job, and they freaked out about it.  But NOW some of those same fans really WANT him to do exactly that?

He didn't cave for Watson or Wentz and has not shown any desperate tendencies yet, and I thought that's what they preferred him to do, seeing as how they were assuming such and bashing him for it before the fact?

Furthermore, many fans want Pace gone and will literally go out of their way to bash him for breathing wrong, but they want him to sign a marquee QB that will essentially save his job.

What the hell am I missing here? This is what I mean about some Bears fans being so fickle.

No clue as to what this post even means. He could he not "cave" for Watson, when no offer was extended, and at this point, no offer would even be accepted?

Not "caving" for Wentz is a no-brainer. The Bears were interested, but not at anything close to what the Colts offered. Which is actually pretty smart. Props for Pace on that one. 

Who has actually freaked out about Pace spending draft capital to acquire a QB, but then turned around and freaked out when he actually did it? For the record, Pace HASN'T made a trade for a QB, unless I somehow missed something. 

What are you talking about? 

[JAF-N72EX]

1 minute ago, Heinz D. said:

No clue as to what this post even means.

You have missed alot in this forum then. That's why.

[abstract_thought]

10 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Is that not an acceptable one-year hurdle for you if it means we are getting Russell Wilson at QB? I’d sure be okay with it. There’s more we could do that I didn’t allow for either (notably, I didn’t do anything with Eddie Jackson’s deal - we could create an additional ~$7M converting 2021 base salary into a bonus, more elsewhere adding void years to the ends of deals, etc.

I’m simply pointing out that Wilson will not lead to instant success. Seattle is likely a better supporting cast than whatever would be left of the Bears after the trade.

And considering the draft picks it would take to acquire him, you’d be looking at limitations similar to when the Bears acquired Mack.

[AZBearsFan]

21 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

I’m simply pointing out that Wilson will not lead to instant success. Seattle is likely a better supporting cast than whatever would be left of the Bears after the trade.

And considering the draft picks it would take to acquire him, you’d be looking at limitations similar to when the Bears acquired Mack.

There’s no assurance that any personnel move will lead to success, but I think it’d be a pretty easy line to draw that having Wilson gives us a better chance to compete in 2021 than not having him. We haven’t been limited in being able to acquire talent because of the Mack trade - we’ve only been limited in being able to acquire cheap talent through the draft. Our voids in young talent at OT and QB aren’t because we couldn’t invest in those positions with the picks we had - they’re because we didn’t.  

I also don’t think you can so easily say our supporting cast is way worse than that in SEA because what our offense has produced has been severely limited by the QBs running the show. IMO:

DK = < ARob

Lockett > Mooney (but let’s see Mooney with a QB who can hit him consistently 15+ yards down the field) 

Hollister/Dissly = < Kmet 

Carson (UFA who may not return to SEA) = Montgomery (but < Monty factoring health history) 

SEA OL = CHI OL (neither is good, neither is the worst)

I doubt the Bears gut the offensive roster in a move to add a QB to bolster the offense. I’d be pretty surprised if any players in a Wilson deal aren’t defensive players. Outside of QB (if they’re trading Wilson away) their biggest needs where we have players they might actually want are on defense IMO. 

[Heinz D.]

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

You have missed alot in this forum then. That's why.

"That's why"...what, exactly?

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I don't understand.  Pace wasn't fired and everyone went ape **** talking about how Pace is going to be so desperate that he's going to use future capital and money to save his job, and they freaked out about it.  But NOW some of those same fans really WANT him to do exactly that?

He didn't cave for Watson or Wentz and has not shown any desperate tendencies yet, and I thought that's what they preferred him to do, seeing as how they were assuming such and bashing him for it before the fact?

Furthermore, many fans want Pace gone and will literally go out of their way to bash him for breathing wrong, but they want him to sign a marquee QB that will essentially save his job.

What the hell am I missing here? This is what I mean about some Bears fans being so fickle.

I was nervous he would make a major move at someone who wasn't worth it. Wentz in particular so Nagy can have "his" guy. There has just been no real positive moves at QB under Pace. That being said Nagy might be feeling the heat too so he might have been on board with making a move that was poor.

The biggest issue has been QB for the Bears. It was the weak link that prevented a potential dynasty in the 80s, it killed us in the Super Bowl vs the Colts, it has been a weak point for us the entire time Pace and Nagy has been here minus one year where the QB play was still poor for half the year. I don't trust his judgement at QB and until I get evidence he has any semblance of eye for that spot won't budge.

That being said I like the 2021 draft's QBs much more than the 2022's at this point, so the odds of him getting a decent QB are higher here by default IMO. And while Wilson and Watson don't mean immediate success it means we actually have a franchise QB to build around. Even if we lose ARob you add either of those two and the offense will be better and more consistent than 2018 IMO, Pace seems to have hit with Smith but Floyd was a bust for his intended role (EDGE) and Mack allowed him to be in a role that fit him. Tru is a bust as was White (injury was out of his control and I don't really hold him accountable for that. Just bad luck).

To me, Pace has had far more success when trading away his 1sts for a premium player than he has using them for a pick. Mack has been the most impactful player on the team bar none and Wilson would be the same. Plus he has not drafted a legit OT so I have no idea how well he can make a pick there either.

The dramatic responses aren't valid, I agree with you on that. Some was pure tongue-in-cheek (like my Hill trade to run the triple option). But I feel the concerns are absolutely worth noting. So far I'm content he didn't outbid himself to get a nobody like Foles, or trade for a bridge starter like Alex Smith. He's done right so far at QB this offseason. To me though he has had his time to make the offense competent, he has retooled the roster as he wanted and he picked his HC who has had time to install his scheme. 2021 is the year to put up or get out - IDC if it is a rookie taking snaps, Foles, or Wilson. If the offense is bottom 15 you don't need to be here.

[JAF-N72EX]

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

"That's why"...what, exactly?

The why and the why.  You are one of the fans who I was talking about, and now you're clearly offended by what I said.

If you have nothing else to offer in this convo then move on.

 

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

I was nervous he would make a major move at someone who wasn't worth it. Wentz in particular so Nagy can have "his" guy. There has just been no real positive moves at QB under Pace. That being said Nagy might be feeling the heat too so he might have been on board with making a move that was poor.

Fair enough.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

The biggest issue has been QB for the Bears. It was the weak link that prevented a potential dynasty in the 80s,

Yes and no.  McMahon was solid and the dirty hit on him by a Packers' player killed us. Sorry, this was off subject, I just had to note that lol.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

The biggest issue has been QB for the Bears. It was the weak link that prevented a potential dynasty in the 80s, it killed us in the Super Bowl vs the Colts, it has been a weak point for us the entire time Pace and Nagy has been here minus one year where the QB play was still poor for half the year. I don't trust his judgement at QB and until I get evidence he has any semblance of eye for that spot won't budge.

I don't necessarily disagree with not having faith either of the two.

However, when people say Pace has been wrong three times on QBs...that's complete false and this narrative needs to stop.  (even though it won't because some fans are idiots and have a hard time disguising the difference between the two).

Let's be clear, Pace has been wrong once in the draft, and one other time in free agency. Mitch and Glennon. 

Nagy was also wrong on Mitch and also on Foles.  Foles was HIS guy, not Pace.

I think this year, because both of them know this is their last chance,  that Pace is going finally let Nagy choose his preferred QB. Whether through the draft or free agency.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

That being said I like the 2021 draft's QBs much more than the 2022's at this point, so the odds of him getting a decent QB are higher here by default IMO. And while Wilson and Watson don't mean immediate success it means we actually have a franchise QB to build around.

But how do you build around a QB when you lack the resources to do so?

You gave up those potential resources the minute you decided wage the future on said QB. That's the point I'm getting at.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

To me, Pace has had far more success when trading away his 1sts for a premium player than he has using them for a pick. Mack has been the most impactful player on the team bar none and Wilson would be the same. Plus he has not drafted a legit OT so I have no idea how well he can make a pick there either.

How can you say this with a straight face? 

Pace has only traded away the first round pick twice in 7 years. One for Mitch and 2 others for Mack. Are we basing it on this? Mitch is a bust and Mack is not? Cmon man, that's not it works.

Pace has drafted 4 players (White, Floyd, Roquan, and Mitch) and 2 of those 4 have worked out.

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

And while Wilson and Watson don't mean immediate success it means we actually have a franchise QB to build around.

I ask again though.  How do you build around a QB when you lack the resources to do so? You have to remember, we're no longer dealing with a rookie QB or fringe starter contract. But rather taking on a 35M/yr contract with minimal resources to build around.

You gave up those potential resources the minute you decided wage the future on said QB. That's the point I'm getting at.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Fair enough.

Yes and no.  McMahon was solid and the dirty hit on him by a Packers' player killed us. Sorry, this was off subject, I just had to note that lol.

Well McMahon was terrible in his 87 playoff game and then in 88 he put up a 3 point performance. Injuries derailed him but he was never that good, he was on an all-time great team and was the weak link. I stand by my statement that Kyle Orton was a better QB than McMahon overall - and I've never been an Orton fan.

 

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I don't necessarily disagree with not having faith either of the two.

However, when people say Pace has been wrong three times on QBs...that's complete false and this narrative needs to stop.  (even though it won't because some fans are idiots and have a hard time disguising the difference between the two).

Let's be clear, Pace has been wrong once in the draft, and one other time in free agency. Mitch and Glennon. 

Nagy was also wrong on Mitch and also on Foles.  Foles was HIS guy, not Pace.

As the GM he has the final say, I can't absolve him of Foles.

As far as Nagy being wrong on Mitch, Mitch was here before Nagy, so are you talking about Nagy not trying to force a bigger move prior to the 2020 season because he misjudged Tru?

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I think this year, because both of them know this is their last chance,  that Pace is going finally let Nagy choose his preferred QB. Whether through the draft or free agency.

But how do you build around a QB when you lack the resources to do so?

There are a lot of contracts that can be dropped over this year and next alone. Cap space won't be a real issue, and having a legit QB will attract talent. They won't lack resources. There will be turnover and a lot of guys coming in. But if Pace can't draft talent, or if he can't trade back to get more swings and hopeful hits - then why the hell do we have him here?

We've talked on here about being able to restructure, cut, re-sign and structure deals, etc. A QB can have the same done to his deal as well.

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

You gave up those potential resources the minute you decided wage the future on said QB. That's the point I'm getting at.

And I'm comfortable with making a swing with a legit QB than hoping that both Pace and Nagy find AND develop a QB. Neither has done either yet.

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

How can you say this with a straight face? 

Pace has only traded away the first round pick twice in 7 years. One for Mitch and 2 others for Mack. Are we basing it on this? Mitch is a bust and Mack is not? Cmon man, that's not it works.

Pace has drafted 4 players (White, Floyd, Roquan, and Mitch) and 2 of those 4 have worked out.

Floyd wasn't re-signed or given a 5th year extension. He was a solid piece for 2 years and ok for his first 2 as an offball LB. For a top 10 pick that isn't good. IDC how well he does elsewhere, if he thrives elsewhere that just further digs the hole for Pace. 

Mitch was the 2nd player taken in a draft with 2 franchise QBs. That compounds the miss, this wasn't Brady coming out of nowhere to be the GOAT, there was a LOT more tape on Mahomes and Watson and he missed. I don't care about what draft pundits are saying for the papers and for sites - Pace was paid millions and made a massive failure on his biggest choice of his career so far.

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I ask again though.  How do you build around a QB when you lack the resources to do so? You have to remember, we're no longer dealing with a rookie QB or fringe starter contract. But rather taking on a 35M/yr contract with minimal resources to build around.

You gave up those potential resources the minute you decided wage the future on said QB. That's the point I'm getting at.

 

Wilson or Watson with Miller/Mooney/Kmet/Monty would outperform Tru/ARob/Miller/Burton/Howard on a consistent basis. You also become a more likely destination for guys who are talented and want 1 year prove-it deals to try and increase their values.

Besides let's look at this from the other perspective. Pace has had 6 years and has had that many years of resources, draft capital, FA deals, etc and has 1 year of a somewhat respectable offense to show. Why should I think he is going to suddenly be able to turn it around? While drafting he has failed at his big swing at QB, Miller is the best WR he has drafted (Mooney showing promise but he may fall off, you can put him here if you want), he has never drafted a person that can start at OT, he has had numerous flops at TE with an aging Graham and Kmet being his best duo, and his OL has consistently underperformed. If this is how his resources are used to try and build around a QB (who may or may not actually be worth a damn) then give me the QB and let another GM stock talent around him.

I hope Pace proves my doubts wrong but I don't have faith in him or Nagy offensively - at all.

[abstract_thought]

22 hours ago, HuskieBear said:

teams cant acquire other team's dead money. that's why it's dead.

They could convert some of his signing bonus to roster bonuses which the Bears would eventually pay. It's effectively the same as trading the dead money.

[HuskieBear]

1 hour ago, abstract_thought said:

They could convert some of his signing bonus to roster bonuses which the Bears would eventually pay. It's effectively the same as trading the dead money.

i mean, those are two different things. you should have said "reworked the contract to facilitate the trade"

[WindyCity]

1 hour ago, abstract_thought said:

They could convert some of his signing bonus to roster bonuses which the Bears would eventually pay. It's effectively the same as trading the dead money.

The signing bonus is already paid. There is no way to convert the dead cap space.

You can only convert money that has not been paid.

[Ty21]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:37 AM, HuskieBear said:

teams cant acquire other team's dead money. that's why it's dead.

Yeah if only you could trade money like in other major league sports