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Lions signed Brad Holmes as new gm


flyguy1609

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2 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

Many if not most of us had 20/20 foresight with Quintricia in 2019...

Do you believe that Campbell will accomplish everything that Patricia couldn't? I'm not talking about record, defensive ranking, etc.

Win the division, make the playoffs and/or compete/win a SB. 

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2 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Do you believe that Campbell will accomplish everything that Patricia couldn't? I'm not talking about record, defensive ranking, etc.

Win the division, make the playoffs and/or compete/win a SB. 

I'm trying to be optimistic, but no.

I'm at the point where I don't think the Lions will find success as long as the Fords and Rod Wood run the team. 

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1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

How can you support a 6-10 franchise in year 2 with no real distinction on what "arrow pointed at a Super Bowl" means? 

Hindsight is 20/20 but the argument could have been made that the Quintricia Lions were headed in that direction at the end of the 2019 season. With a Stafford led offense we would likely have finished at worst 8-8. There was clearly a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, Patricia rubbed some guys the wrong way, they drafted too scheme dependent, etc. and 2021 was a mess. However, I don't really see a distinction between Quintricia finishing 6-10 in year 2 as opposed to saying that you'd be ok with Campbell/Holmes being 6-10 in year 2 but somehow a SB is on the horizon. 

I am always going to cheer for the Lions and whomever is running the show. Whether I expect them to win or not is a different story. There were signs that we could right the ship with a healthy Stafford and additional pieces to the defense that fit Patricia's scheme. When it became evident that it wasn't going to happen, my patience had been worn out and it was time for him to go. I'll be giving Campbell and Holmes that same timeline with the same expectations. Maybe it's just me, but I won't be happy with a 6-10 record in year 2. 

Who says there's no real distinction? Just because I can't put it into neat little words and numbers for you to understand and/or pick apart later doesn't mean there isn't one.

Even if the 2019 Lions had gone 8-8, my guts told me Patricia was a disaster. And by the way they wouldn't have even with Stafford because Patricia started rushing 3 guys in Week 3 or 4 and never came out of it.

I was using 6-10 as an example. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either, and if it comes out that way there will be of a handful of more specific issues that one may notice. I'm saying it's not impossible for a coach to be doing good things that you can see, and yet the record doesn't show it quite yet. Patricia was not that guy.

Edited by Superduperman
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4 hours ago, Superduperman said:

Sounds a little like what the Lions had with Mayhew and Lewand, one guy doing more personnel and one guy doing more business. I'm not saying that to downplay it, it sounds like a fine plan if the people involved are good at their jobs.

 

To be fair, Tom Lewand was replaced by Rod Wood.  So although yes those areas reported to Lewand, they now have another leadership level in-between so there is even less pressure/stress/time wasted on those things and Holmes can focus on finding and acquiring talent.  Its actually a bigger deal to me because this is the type of re-structuring I was hoping for.  I have been saying we dont have the proper support for people to be successful in a GM and coaching role and its because the GM and coach had to do a lot of these things ( I will guarantee that some of the non personnel tasks were previously pushed down on the coach).  Again, this may not be the exact right answer but they have now set up the org chart to look like the Rams and allows Holmes to come into a roll that he may not have done but is familiar with.  Its a change that was needed and another step in the right direction along with Spielman.  I am not convinced we have the right people or will allow the new structure to fully develop how it should, but these are very important steps in the right direction. 

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2 minutes ago, Superduperman said:

Who says there's no real distinction? Just because I can't put it into neat little words and numbers for you to understand and/or pick apart later doesn't mean there isn't one.

Even if the 2019 Lions had gone 8-8, my guts told me Patricia was a disaster. And by the way they wouldn't have even with Stafford because Patricia started rushing 3 guys in Week 3 or 4 and never came out of it.

I was using 6-10 as an example. I probably wouldn't be happy with that either, but if it comes out that way there will be of a handful of more specific issues that one may notice. I'm saying it's not impossible for a coach to be doing good things that you can see, and yet the record doesn't show it quite yet. Patricia was not that guy.

I don't disagree with you on your second last part - the 2019 Dolphins are a great example of that. 

What I'm asking for, on a collective basis, is a bar is set that Campbell and Holmes should be expected to hit in a reasonable timeframe as a demonstration that things are on the right track. I don't want Campbell to become Caldwell 2.0. 9-7 and first round ousters is not the standard that we should be aiming for. 

When Patricia was hired, there were several times where "9-7 isn't good enough" and "we had a good roster" was banged on over and over as proof that Patricia was not going to be able to get it done in year 2. This ignored the fact that we were missing Stafford for the bulk of year 2 and lost several close games that we likely would have won with #9 at the helm. Our defense was a sift and there was clearly a lot of behind the scenes issues that led to a lack of success on the field. 

What I'm expecting is that Campbell and Holmes are going to be given a much longer leash than was given to Patricia/Quinn with more patience without necessarily earning it. If they bring back Stafford and go 6-10 in year 2, I'd have a really hard time buying into the fact that we're "on the right track". It'd be more open to interpretation if they're playing a rookie. 

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3 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

What I'm asking for, on a collective basis, is a bar is set that Campbell and Holmes should be expected to hit in a reasonable timeframe as a demonstration that things are on the right track.

Well, I can't help you with that on my own part. It's the eyeball test for me.

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17 minutes ago, Superduperman said:

Well, I can't help you with that on my own part. It's the eyeball test for me.

Exactly. Watching Schwartz/Mayhew's Lions, we knew after the 6-10 season when they rattled off 4 wins to end the season that they were trending up. The team had the look and attitude. Caldwell's Lions won more games consistently but I never felt they would go anywhere. I NEVER saw anything trending upward with QuinnTricia. I'll give Holmes/Campbell a few seasons to build their roster and see how it looks.

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12 hours ago, Louis Friend said:

Exactly. Watching Schwartz/Mayhew's Lions, we knew after the 6-10 season when they rattled off 4 wins to end the season that they were trending up. The team had the look and attitude. Caldwell's Lions won more games consistently but I never felt they would go anywhere. I NEVER saw anything trending upward with QuinnTricia. I'll give Holmes/Campbell a few seasons to build their roster and see how it looks.

What is a few seasons for you? 2?3?

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Talent gaps in the NFL are actually rather small and roster turnover happens relatively quick.  With the right coaches to develop talent and the right talent, we can be good in two years.  Could potentially be good next year. 

Patricia started on the wrong foot, had the locker room against him and it continued each offseason with someone wanting out or someone not signing here because of him.  Patricia struggled with in game coaching.  He missed a lot of challenges, threw the challenge in weird spots, and didn't make adjustments in game.  He also seemed to let off the gas too early and try to depend on the D to win games for us when it wasn't our strength.  He struggled with developing talent, or his coordinators did anyways.  Especially on D.  Those are direct issues the led to his failing.  A lot of it was visible in year one.  In year two I wanted to see progress in those areas and it likely would have led to more wins.  He didn't improve, and we didnt win.  So by year two we will know where we are headed.  It may not be playoffs or SB in two years but we will see the direction and smart coaching and developing players leads to wins, so we should see progress.  

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10 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Talent gaps in the NFL are actually rather small and roster turnover happens relatively quick.  With the right coaches to develop talent and the right talent, we can be good in two years.  Could potentially be good next year. 

Patricia started on the wrong foot, had the locker room against him and it continued each offseason with someone wanting out or someone not signing here because of him.  Patricia struggled with in game coaching.  He missed a lot of challenges, threw the challenge in weird spots, and didn't make adjustments in game.  He also seemed to let off the gas too early and try to depend on the D to win games for us when it wasn't our strength.  He struggled with developing talent, or his coordinators did anyways.  Especially on D.  Those are direct issues the led to his failing.  A lot of it was visible in year one.  In year two I wanted to see progress in those areas and it likely would have led to more wins.  He didn't improve, and we didnt win.  So by year two we will know where we are headed.  It may not be playoffs or SB in two years but we will see the direction and smart coaching and developing players leads to wins, so we should see progress.  

Ultimately, for me, I want to see the Lions become a good team. Not Lions good but generally NFL good. Using Caldwell or Patricia as a measuring stick for this next regime is not how we should be moving things forward. 

We should be using teams like the Dolphins, Browns, Bills (historically bad teams moving in the right direction)as a measure of that next step and then striving to be the next Chiefs, Seahawks, etc. (teams that have not been historically successful franchises but consistent/strong organizations in the last decade). 

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3 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Ultimately, for me, I want to see the Lions become a good team. Not Lions good but generally NFL good. Using Caldwell or Patricia as a measuring stick for this next regime is not how we should be moving things forward. 

We should be using teams like the Dolphins, Browns, Bills (historically bad teams moving in the right direction)as a measure of that next step and then striving to be the next Chiefs, Seahawks, etc. (teams that have not been historically successful franchises but consistent/strong organizations in the last decade). 

Well thats what I am saying.  I am not using Patricia as a measuring stick, I am pointing out what I saw wrong year one and continued to be wrong throughout.  Its why I called for him to be fired before this past season because it wasn't trending in the right direction.  The Dolphins did a complete overhaul and their team fights for their coach.  They may be missing a piece or two but they have picks and some cap space to fill in those holes.  Similar to what Buffalo did last year.  They made strides and then added Diggs and some solid picks to fill in the holes this year.  Everyone saw them trending that way.  I think the same can be said for the Browns and the Cardinals.  They have added a lot of talent and have been trending in the right direction.  And the Browns are one of those teams that prove my point on roster turnover and talent gaps being small.  They were 0-16 three years ago and won a playoff game this year.  People saw them trending in the right direction but needed the right leadership at HC and seem to have found it.  Thats what I am talking about.  The Browns added talent, saw the coach was wrong and switched him after one year which is unprecedented.  Then found the right guy and have made progress each year.  We could be in the playoffs next year if all goes right.  This isn't a 3/4 year rebuild, in fact no team truly is a 3/4 year rebuild in the NFL if done right. 

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