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What’s your offer for Deshaun Watson?


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5 minutes ago, champ11 said:

that comparison feels very disrespectful. he's elite. top tier QB. not Mahomes, but he is top 5. willing to trade assets is a different conversation. before this tire fire year w/ a joke of an organization (where he was still very very very good and getting better) he put together two elite seasons where his team won 11 and 10 games. and he has 3 years as a full starter - 2 with a competent team - not 5 

Sorry, he’s been in the league 4 years not 5. But I disagree that he’s elite. He’s very good. I put him in that range of QBs who can lead a talented team to the playoffs, but where he’s at right now is not one who will carry a team. Much like Jake the Snake. Maybe closer to a Donavan McNabb? Either way not an elite franchise QB who carries the team deep year after year and always a threat to win a Lombardi. 

that’s not to say he can’t grow, simply that he’s not there after 4 years, seems to have regressed when he can’t throw it up to the best WR in the league (needs to show it’s not arepeat of culpepper and moss) and isn’t worth the assets being discussed.

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6 minutes ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

Sorry, he’s been in the league 4 years not 5. But I disagree that he’s elite. He’s very good. I put him in that range of QBs who can lead a talented team to the playoffs, but where he’s at right now is not one who will carry a team. Much like Jake the Snake. Maybe closer to a Donavan McNabb? Either way not an elite franchise QB who carries the team deep year after year and always a threat to win a Lombardi. 

that’s not to say he can’t grow, simply that he’s not there after 4 years, seems to have regressed when he can’t throw it up to the best WR in the league (needs to show it’s not arepeat of culpepper and moss) and isn’t worth the assets being discussed.

why do you think that? his numbers are elite. his talent is elite. he's athletic and can move. seems to me you are holding not leading an absolutely awful team this year (that he kept in a lot of games) against him. having the best WR in the league on his team previous to this year obviously helped him. that's what elite receivers do 

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1 hour ago, broncos_fan _from _uk said:

I like Watson, but let's be real. 5 years in the league. 1 playoff win. People talk like he's mahomes or Brady. He's Jake Plummer or Carson Palmer. I wouldn't kick him off my team but people talking 3 1sts, 3 2nds and Von? Hard pass 

like I said a couple weeks ago when I pointed out he had friended a bunch of Broncos players on IG, I’d give 2 firsts and lock. If the Texans pass for a better offer, so be it.

 

56 minutes ago, champ11 said:

that comparison feels very disrespectful. he's elite. top tier QB. not Mahomes, but he is top 5. willing to trade assets is a different conversation. before this tire fire year w/ a joke of an organization (where he was still very very very good and getting better) he put together two elite seasons where his team won 11 and 10 games. and he has 3 years as a full starter - 2 with a competent team - not 5 

I could not disagree more with those comps.  They are completely off-base.

 

HOU's team is absymal, and has been since Watson joined.     And it's not just a belief, the hard metrics support this overwhelmingly.

 

2017: HOU D 19th, HOU Run O 24th, OL 24th run blocking, 28th pass protection by DVOA.   Watson obviously missed more than half the season with ACL, so not counting their pass rank.

2018: HOU D 10th, HOU Pass O 12th Run O 28th,  OL 27th run blocking, 32nd pass protection

2019:  HOU D 22nd,  HOU Pass O 12th, Run O 17th,   OL 12th run blocking, 27th pass protection

2020:  HOU D 30th, HOU Pass O 8th Run O 32nd, OL 25th run blocking, 32nd pass protection 


And that's before we factor in that Bill O'Brien has been their coach.   I think we all recognize BOB was a bottom 5 game manager - and frankly, he singlehandledly brought KC back from 24-0 with his game management - that 24-0 lead that Watson-led O created.  And then punted instead of giving Watson the chance to keep coming back, too.  And we should marvel at Watson's 2020 season came about with Nuk Hopkins gone, and the only top 30 WR on his team, Will Fuller, missed 6 games.  

Horrible D's except for 1 year.   Horrible OL play.   No run game.   And a HC who game managed about as badly as Anthony Lynn, and makes Fangio look like a genius game-management wise.   

Sorry, but if you think Watson isn't elite - you're not paying attention to his work, and his team situation.   The fact HOU had KC on the brink last year, was all Watson.  The reason they made playoffs in 2019 - all Watson.  The only reason why any HC wants to go to HOU with no picks, no cap space and an aging roster - it's all Watson.

I don't know if we can outbid other teams for Watson, and I don't know what price will get him that's worth it.   But I feel comfortable saying Watson's elite at age 25.   If I had to choose, independent of contract, there are only 2 QB's I'd want ahead of Watson to start a franchise - Mahomes & Allen (nothing against the older guys, but I'm taking the young guys if I'm starting a franchise).    I don't have a problem with ppl who say they'd want to take a rookie-contract Lawrence, but that's about it (and only because of the savings - Watson is a better bet to stay elite than Lawrence to get there, and I think Lawrence will get there, FTR - and to be complete, Herbert is #5, given the ceiling, and my preference to go uber-young).  

We can debate Watson being worth the price given the picks/players involved, and the contract (although again, by 2023 there is a very real chance this contract will be seen as an outright bargain).    But there's very little debate that he's elite.    If anything, the fact he has carried the Texans to the playoffs in 2 of the 3 years, and took the SB champs to the brink, given the very real team and HC handicaps he's been given, supports this argument.

 

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1 minute ago, broncosfan_101 said:

⬆️ Allen over Watson is contract-related, yes? 

That's how I'm viewing it I'm not saying he's not elite I'm saying he's not worth that crazy trade compensation at all I think that's an over valuation maybe I could be wrong hope it happens.

 

I'd like to see how long Watson holds on the ball too compared too other QBs. It feels high and I just feel like Houston has invested resources in that position group. 

If he holds onto the ball high im totally with @broncofanuk with the Culpeper comp. Before his injury he was considered elite. Guys who hold onto the ball long tend to get further injured in future predication. Gotta factor in everything when going all in .

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10 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

⬆️ Allen over Watson is contract-related, yes? 

It's that Allen's still improving.   Body-of-work, it's Watson by a mile.   But Watson's also not a guy who has more physical development left.   Allen's just had his mechanical adjustment, which has led to his 2020 MVP-level season (he'll finish 3rd, he won't win).  Mahomes-level ceiling is still possible.   Obviously, the rookie deal helps, but I did say independent-of-contract.    I'll readily eat crow on my concerns with Allen (although I also did recognize he had the elite-outcome ceiling, and highest of bunch).  

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10 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

 

If he holds onto the ball high im totally with @broncofanuk with the Culpeper comp. Before his injury he was considered elite. Guys who hold onto the ball long tend to get further injured in future predication. Gotta factor in everything when going all in .

The "he could get hurt" argument is pretty much the weakest argument to be made, especially for QB's, and in today's era...and coming to our OL situation (refreshing to finally say that).   

Price required, for sure there's clearly room for debate.     But we're not talking about Cam and shoulder, or Luck-2-years-ago situation.   

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5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The "he could get hurt" argument is pretty much the weakest argument to be made, especially for QB's, and in today's era...and coming to our OL situation (refreshing to finally say that).   

Price required, for sure there's clearly room for debate.     But we're not talking about Cam and shoulder, or Luck-2-years-ago situation.   

He's had knee issues and injury issues in general dating back to freshman year in college so yes I'm bringing that up both from a financial perspective, and all the assets that are to be assumed to be required to land him.

 

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2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

It's that Allen's still improving.   Body-of-work, it's Watson by a mile.   But Watson's also not a guy who has more physical development left.   Allen's just had his mechanical adjustment, which has led to his 2020 MVP-level season (he'll finish 3rd, he won't win).  Mahomes-level ceiling is still possible.   Obviously, the rookie deal helps, but I did say independent-of-contract.    I'll readily eat crow on my concerns with Allen (although I also did recognize he had the elite-outcome ceiling, and highest of bunch).  

Josh Allen is clearly not just a product of his environment, but at the same time, I don’t think there’s any way he’s a top 5 QB playing for the Texans this year. We’ve gotta account for him playing with an above average offensive line, a very good collection of weapons, and an OC that seems to be an effective, aggressive play-caller. 
 

Allen makes it all work, he’s very very good. But we’ve seen one good year in a very friendly situation. I’ll take Deshaun over him today, easily. 

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5 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

Josh Allen is clearly not just a product of his environment, but at the same time, I don’t think there’s any way he’s a top 5 QB playing for the Texans this year. We’ve gotta account for him playing with an above average offensive line, a very good collection of weapons, and an OC that seems to be an effective, aggressive play-caller. 
 

Allen makes it all work, he’s very very good. But we’ve seen one good year in a very friendly situation. I’ll take Deshaun over him today, easily. 

Can't argue it, at least without money involved.   I put all 3 in the same tier, though,as a franchise builder.  Once the light comes on in an elite-ceiling talent that needs mechanical adjustments, you rarely see it come off.  It's just so few players actually make that adjustment.   Watson's already elite, but he's also stable (both good and bad in that way).  Allen can still elevate into Mahomes-territory.  His arm talent and mobility and ability to improvise are that good, we just need to see him sustain his gains and see how far it leads him (and it would help BUF to get 1 more elite weapon to make them explode into KC-level, Diggs is different in how he does it, but he's the Hill level game changer).    Right now, there's only Mahomes in his own tier, even above the other elite QB's (ARod, Watson, Allen present-year).    Allen / Herbert are early enough they might get into the discussion, though, which is why I stated Allen over Watson before - I'm a sucker for ceiling.  

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5 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Deshaun watson has had a broken bone in wrist, two acls torn, and a strained acl and that was when I got tired of researching it.

Yeah I'm out on the three first, three seconds, von miller, and Courtland sutton deal.

I saw nothing about a wrist injury. Both ACL’s have torn (one because Dabo let him play with a sprained knee), a couple minor fractures in 2014 (finger and collarbone), and a mild back sprain last season. Nothing I’d be concerned about.

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7 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

I saw nothing about a wrist injury. Both ACL’s have torn (one because Dabo let him play with a sprained knee), a couple minor fractures in 2014 (finger and collarbone), and a mild back sprain last season. Nothing I’d be concerned about.

I get very concerned with two tears. I know the odds of a re tear go up significantly once you tear it the first time he tore two. I'm just saying if I'm Patton or anyone making a trade like that I'm researching the heck out of it.

My biggest fear is us trading for Watson and he gets a big injury we might be screwed with damaged goods and no picks literally sol.

I know Dabo left him in but it happened he had 18 month injuries

1/4 of his NFL career 1/4 college they add up. I know Watson is way more than mobility but that's still a big chunk of his game. He's also very evasive in the pocket.

 

 

 

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Watson had his best season this year despite having an awful coach, no Hopkins, a bad interim coach, porous defense, etc. Compare his 2019 to 2020 season:

15 333  495   67.3  3,852 7.8 26 12    54    44      4    98.0
16 382 544 70.2 4,823 8.9 33 7 77 49 4 112.4
Edited by Joe_is_the_best
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John Harbaugh: Deshaun Watson holds the ball longer than any NFL QB 

 

first article that comes up when I search how long does Deshaun watson hold onto the football. I think that and the acl tears. I just think the value being proposed is insanity. 

 

 

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