Journey to Ring 3: Club Evaluation & Building Another Champion

[SalvadorsDeli]

6 minutes ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

This guy knows better how to build a team than the organization that's done it this way and won two super bowls. Maybe we should put you in charge!

Lol they won that last Super Bowl because Ozzie recognized he needed to get better at the WR position and traded for and paid Anquan Boldin rather than telling himself Tandon Doss was gonna be good enough like you're proposing. But go off. 

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That way of building you're trashing is what the Ravens do, but I heard Atlanta is hurting for fans these days. 

Lmaooooo I'm a bad fan because I want us to sign a good WR. Do you even hear yourself? Truly this whole 'WR's don't matter' thing is an actual religion for some of you. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by SalvadorsDeli

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

7 minutes ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

Lol they won that last Super Bowl because Ozzie recognized he needed to get better at the WR position and traded for and paid Anquan Boldin rather than telling himself Tandon Doss was gonna be good enough like you're proposing. But go off. 

One receiver isn't the difference between this squad and that one, and even if it was, Anquan Boldin wasn't eating nearly the cap space that Allen Robinson would. You seem to forget we had an elite offensive line and 5 hall of fame players on that defence as well. But hey maybe Pernell Mcphee and Ben Bredeson can channel the spirit of 2011.

OR ask Tyreek hill how great being the best receiver in the league was while the Bucs defense ate his quarterback...

 

Like I said, I'm down to bring in a cheap option at wide out, but if we break the bank on  an expensive one we won't have improved on what caused us to lose in the playoffs this year. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[SalvadorsDeli]

Whatever you say man.  We've been clearly undermanned from a weapons perspective in the playoffs both of these past 2 years. We won a title with one of our worst defenses of the Harbaugh era because we actually gave our franchise QB some weapons to work with. Somehow the lesson people took from Anquan Boldin catching every 50/50 ball thrown in his zip code to get us a Lombardi is that it's a position we can afford to skimp on. 

I hope EDC remembers how things actually went down rather than selling himself the same myth you're telling yourself. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by SalvadorsDeli

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

27 minutes ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

Whatever you say man.  We've been clearly undermanned from a weapons perspective in the playoffs both of these past 2 years. We won a title with one of our worst defenses of the Harbaugh era because we actually gave our franchise QB some weapons to work with. Somehow the lesson people took from Anquan Boldin catching every 50/50 ball thrown in his zip code to get us a Lombardi is that it's a position we can afford to skimp on. 

I hope EDC remembers how things actually went down rather than selling himself the same myth you're telling yourself. 

I also hope EDC will remember having a wide open receiver in the end zone when Lamar got sacked in the backfield the play before the game changing pick 6, and when Lamar got injured because our offensive line couldn’t snap or protect. Glad we’re on the same page . 

No one is saying improved play from receiver is something we don't need. But if we sacrifice our bigger needs at more important positions for a short-sighted want to get an overpriced receiver we will be worse off. Anquan Boldin was 3 years 22 million. If Allen Robinson or Golladay take that kind of contract, count me in. anyway we don't seem to be coming to an agreement so probably best to just leave it 

Edited February 18, 2021 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[M.10.E]

53 minutes ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

I also hope EDC will remember having a wide open receiver in the end zone when Lamar got sacked in the backfield the play before the game changing pick 6, and when Lamar got injured because our offensive line couldn’t snap or protect. Glad we’re on the same page . 

No one is saying improved play from receiver is something we don't need. But if we sacrifice our bigger needs at more important positions for a short-sighted want to get an overpriced receiver we will be worse off. Anquan Boldin was 3 years 22 million. If Allen Robinson or Golladay take that kind of contract, count me in. anyway we don't seem to be coming to an agreement so probably best to just leave it 

Agreed. I'm fine with wanting weapons, just make sure it's after we pay the OL.

Either BWill or Peters needs to go if you want more money for weapons IMO. Also adding, paying Andrews this offseason would be a mistake (unless he takes a cheap deal). Not an elite athlete and drops too many balls for my liking.

Edited February 18, 2021 by M.10.E

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

9 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

Agreed. I'm fine with wanting weapons, just make sure it's after we pay the OL.

Either BWill or Peters needs to go if you want more money for weapons IMO. Also adding, paying Andrews this offseason would be a mistake (unless he takes a cheap deal). Not an elite athlete and drops too many balls for my liking.

given that option, Big sugar I love you but it's time to retire/spend the season somewhere on a team where it's sunny. Marcus Peters feeds our defense IMO. I would be happy with IDL as an early pick to make up the difference. 

Andrews job is on him next season. Some team will pay him the top tier money, but if he wants that team to be the Ravens he will need to make more noise in big games next season. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[M.10.E]

3 minutes ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

given that option, Big sugar I love you but it's time to retire/spend the season somewhere on a team where it's sunny. Marcus Peters feeds our defense IMO. I would be happy with IDL as an early pick to make up the difference. 

Andrews job is on him next season. Some team will pay him the top tier money, but if he wants that team to be the Ravens he will need to make more noise in big games next season. 

Then we need to re-tool our defense because without BWill it's somehow, someway extremely mediocre and absolutely horrible vs the run.

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

19 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

Then we need to re-tool our defense because without BWill it's somehow, someway extremely mediocre and absolutely horrible vs the run.

I have a feeling Elvis Dumervil might be on the phone telling Von Miller that the food is good in Baltimore, 

 

I'm probably dreaming but if we moved some money and got him on the relatively cheap and that New England offensive linemen who's hitting free agency I'd be okay drafting as many receiver's as will make our fanbase's heart's content. We would win the division handily with that team and a couple productive rookies (I need a RT to replace Brown a -la what the 49ers did with Buckener to Kinlaw) IMO. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[Ray Reed]

We’ve scored more points than any other team in the league the last 2 years. We’ve gotten stopped in the playoffs. It happens.

11 of 12 teams every year end up getting “stopped” in the playoffs offensively. That’s typically why they lose. Look at the Chiefs in the SB and the Packers and Saints in the playoffs. 

We can stand to get better at WR and I hope we do but it’s weird to harp on this “sky is falling offensively” mindset constantly because we don’t have Anquan Boldin and his 900 yards a year we got from him. We scored the same number of points in both 2011 playoff games (20) that we played with Anquan Boldin and all these other weapons people are longing for that we scored in the TEN playoff game this year. I remember after the 2010 playoff game in PIT after Boldin dropped a huge potential game winning TD people back then wanted more weapons for Flacco because up to that point Boldin + our weapons werent getting it done in the playoffs either. But then 2012 happened and all of a sudden Boldin was always enough.

In 2012 they ran it back, Boldin went ham in the playoffs and got us a ring. That’s typically how teams get rings...a player goes off during the playoffs...but those 2008-2012 teams weren’t like dominating teams offensively in the playoffs that entire tenure it just happened to click in 2012. Hollywood has shown a propensity already to “go off” in the playoff games he’s played just as well as Boldin did in 2012.

[Ray Reed]

Anquan Boldin averaged 3 catches for 31 yards in 2 games during the 2010 playoffs. 

He averaged 5 catches for 87 yards in 2 games during the 2011 playoffs.

Thats 1000 percent a statline people in here would point to and say “OUR WRS ARENT GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN BIG PLAYOFF GAMES” if that was our WR1s stats in the playoffs the past two years. That’s just a fact. 

But because Boldin went off that 3rd year in the playoffs in 2012 some people are using revisionist history to say “oh yeah we need a Boldin-type #1 guy to win”. When BOLDIN wasn’t that Boldin-type #1 guy people are fantasizing about getting again in 2 of the 3 playoff seasons for us. 

All it takes is 1 playoff run to change the perception of what “can” or “can’t” cut it. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Ray Reed

[diamondbull424]

3 hours ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

We wouldn't even make it to the divisional round if we build the team the way you're proposing, so I'll take it.

Better get your Pernell Mcphee jersey out and ask him to be Terrell Suggs and Paul Kruger combined. 

This guy knows better how to build a team than the organization that's done it this way and won two super bowls. Maybe we should put you in charge! That way of building you're trashing is what the Ravens do, but I heard Atlanta is hurting for fans these days. 

 

How exactly is this proposed team being built? How is your proposed team being built. Like please provide a salary cap and draft breakdown of these inadequacies.

I mean, I’m personally willing to detail an offseason that could quite easily fit in attacking the WR position early in the draft and/or within FA, while still allocating resources to other positions, that also creates needed impact along the rest of the team in building the unit.

So I simply ask that all of these individuals that keep complaining about the WR position and the cap space, provide that same energy. Like give me a detailed offseason plan of our cap space down to the letter and project our draft resources.

Now I’m not calling anyone wrong in their team building approach, all I ask is that as opposed to this energy saying that “we can’t do this and we can’t do that” then prove it. Detail our cap space, detail our projected contracts, detail our draft pick resources allocated in a particular direction, etc.

 

Again, I wouldn’t ask for anyone to contribute efforts that I’m personally also not willing to do myself. In fact, I’ve done such things over the years and would easily be willing to do the same using realistic resources and realistically assumed draft capital. I will look towards overthecap/spotrac to cultivate contract/value baselines, look at McFarland’s more detailed cap breakdown, utilize the salary floor, and OBJ’s projected draft value based on the overall media perception (and not my personal beliefs of his value), and leave over a projected number of cap space for draft picks and through the year for contract escalations.

How about we all squash this back and forth and simply put our money where our opinion is. How about as opposed to saying “we can’t, we can’t” we instead say “we can do this... and here’s how in detail.” And if we can’t do such, then perhaps we should all be a little less critical of other people’s overall outlook on what is possible.

This isn’t me coming at just you, quite obviously- because I find you to be the most reasonable of the bunch, this is me coming at this overall direction of this forum where continuously I’m seeing people propose that we can’t do this or that, without proposing actual detailed solutions about what’s possible. Comes across more as complaining than debating IMO.

Over the coming days (or hours, if I free up enough), I will put together an extensive offseason plan for no other reason but to disprove this notion that we can’t build a strong team while attacking the receiver position with extensive values added in either the draft and/or with FA. I’ll also just point this out... I include TE as a receiver position within our offense.

Outside of that, my next retort will include a highly detailed offseason because while I already pointed out how a WR deal could be structured, I continuously see this urban legend that we somehow can’t inject team value with a #1 WR.

 

Anyways, as you all were.

[SalvadorsDeli]

Anyways I've already said this a million times and I can't help getting drawn back in, so maybe I should leave it alone because I'm surely just repeating myself at this point. So I'll try to have this be my last post at least for this go-around - I'm sure this convo will keep coming up throughout the offseason. 

We've scored 3 touchdowns over our past 3 playoff games since Lamar basically became a real QB (idk how to even evaluate that Chargers game other than to pretend it never happened). Out of those 3, only one of them was basically a 'normal', sustained offensive drive. The others were a garbage time TD after the first Titans game was already lost and the other was just Lamar doing freak Lamar things and turning nothing into something with a 50 yard TD run. If Tyre Phillips holds up for a second longer and Lamar hits Hollywood instead of throwing a pick six a play later, that gives us a 2nd 'normal TD' of these playoffs, and gets us on the board with our first TD of the day in the 4th quarter of the Bills game. Is that really a great record even it connects? 

If you guys really want to look at that and just say that we can keep running it back and hoping for better results or luck, that's fine, I disagree. I see pretty clear problem areas in the offense that good teams have been able to exploit come playoff time. There were two obvious offensive issues this year  (beyond, to be fair, Lamar's own areas for improvement). We don't win if we only fix one. 

I just don't understand all of the mental gymnastics that go on with this. Whatever logic you all want to use on WR can just as easily be used to apply to the OL, especially considering we already have a ready-made All Pro to add back into the mix in Stanley that we didn't have this year. But we all agree we need to get better along the OL, and I've said as much many times too. Meanwhile, Miles Boykin is also comfortably one of the worst starters on the team. But instead of looking to bring in the best possible guy at a position who directly helps Lamar, people are trying to talk themselves into the idea that it doesn't really matter as much, or that we can settle for less, that we can cut corners there if needed, because what? It's too popular an idea? We're not gonna get extra points for doing it the hard way. You get what you pay for. Go get Lamar some weapons. 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by SalvadorsDeli

[Ray Reed]

Most everybody agrees that we should and probably need to get better at WR.

I don’t find it to be “mental gymnastics” that not everyone agrees that we should go spend $15-20 a year on one of the top 2-3 WRs in FA in order to do that when the team has other needs and we’ve won 25 games the last 2 years.

It’s not like we’re actively campaigning against upgrading at WR (at least i’m not). If EDC signs one of these top guys sweet I’ll be pumped and I can’t wait to watch him. I’m arguing against this notion that somehow our history proves we will never win in the playoffs again unless we have that top tier guy at WR.

We scored more points in a playoff game with our QB completing 4 passes and our top receiving threats being end of career Mason and Mark Clayton than any other playoff game that would include based god anquan boldin outside of one game that went to double OT and another that featured a kick return TD. 

And I don’t find the side arguing “there’s more than one way to skin a cat offensively” to be the complainers of the bunch @diamondbull424 but to each their own. I’d kind of put the “actually complaining about us not having a top WR” group in that category, but hey.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Ray Reed

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

K burying the hatchet Lets meet halfway

Whats the price range the Ravens can afford to give up for a receiver, and who would that net? There has to be a sliding scale of value in EDCs brain somewhere, so who’s a good get for us? 

Is Agholor a FA this offseason? I’ve been joking about it but I’d honestly take AJ green for peanuts and hit the draft but clearly I’m on one end of the ravens fan spectrum opinion. These are the low end guys 

I would love Corey Davis or Juju honestly I think both would be priced just outside the edge of our range. If Beckham gets cut I’d be into that on a low end deal as well (I know I know) 

If we do buy a receiver that pretty much takes them off the draft board early for me. Hopefully an early/mid pick for Orlando would go to an edge player and our Later first and second would bolster the offensive line.

thoughts? Don’t get me wrong Allen or Golladay would be lit but that’s a classic out of our reach imo.

if we buy a receiver I won’t hate it but it’s all about who and for what price 

Edited February 19, 2021 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[SalvadorsDeli]

Tbh I think the biggest domino to fall around all of this is what happens at the EDGE position. Ever since the trade I've been under the assumption we'd re-sign Ngakoue but a combination of his lack of playing time in the playoffs, some of the comments EDC made in his presser, and what insiders like Jeff Z. are saying has me a little more unsure. And I don't think the franchise tag is in the cards because that removes any and all flexibility you have in terms of contract structuring to work around cap limitations. 

If we do let Judon and Ngakoue both walk end up going for Bowser (or a different middle tier FA edge instead) for something like $5-8 million a year with a Year 1 cap hit of $2.5-4 million, then it seems like there would be flexibility to potentially to then also be a player for Golladay or Robinson ($15-17 million a year overall, year 1 cap hit maybe closer to $6-8 million) as well as going for Joe Thuney or Corey Linslay for $12-14 million a year with the same sort of structure of minimizing the Year 1 hit. If we do re-sign Ngakoue then I think it becomes a question of going top tier at one position of OL and going middle tier at WR - so basically maybe the difference between a combo of Brandon Scherff and Marvin Jones or Trai Turner and Kenny Golladay.

This is all just kitchen table math on my part though so maybe I'm off but it seems to me like basically we have the room to make 2 big signings and one middle tier signing this offseason if we are willing to bet on the coming cap jump/new TV contracts, and it's just a game of musical chairs between OL/WR/EDGE as to which one of those gets the 'short' end of the stick there. I've obviously made my feelings clear on where I think we would be wisest to make one of those big investments, and I think my preference is still to come out of the offseason with Robinson or Golladay, Ngakoue, an Alex Mack/Trai Turner level IOL, and then a 1st or 2nd round offensive lineman. 

But if we aren't actually going to pay Ngakoue then all bets are off, at that point it really doesn't even look like we'd have to choose between spending big at WR or IOL. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by SalvadorsDeli