Saints QB Drew Brees retiring

[ramssuperbowl99]

6 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Yeah in an era when there were like 12 quarterbacks playing, not 32 lol.

And like you said - Brees’ contemporaries were all-timers like Manning, Brady, Rodgers, etc. Otto Graham was a 9 time all pro- sure - with significantly, significantly less competition for those accolades. Unitas didn’t hit the scene until ‘58. The first legitimate “modern day” QB whose play style you’d actually even recognize as somewhat similar to the modern game. Otto Graham was winning his all pros over guys you’ve never heard of. 

If you wanna be that guy, go ahead, but you have 0% idea how good Otto Graham was. You just don’t. Looking on a website that says “9 time all pro” doesn’t change that.

 

He had Luckman and Baugh at the very beginning of his career, but dude, we agree here more than you think. I'm knocking Brees because he wasn't ever the best QB, and didn't even have a the best season. Graham was the best QB in football, on his own, for pretty much the better part of a decade. I think he deserves credit for that. 

 

Honestly, if someone wants to exclude guys pre-merger, that's fair enough with me. Rather than get bogged down in a specific list, the general point I'm trying to make is that Brees wasn't exceptional relative to his competition. You could stick an asterisk on everybody who retired before 2000, and exclude Unitas too completely if you want. The game is wildly different, and I think the average reader understands that the comparisons become more and more indirect as eras change and whatnot.

Edited January 18, 2021 by ramssuperbowl99

[MacReady]

Just now, MWil23 said:

Ehhhhh...no

Russell Wilson is significantly better than and more capable than Brees.

Wilson's ability five years from now surpasses Drew's from 15 years ago. 

And Tarkenton?  Yeah.  Ehhhhh.... Yes. 

Tarkenton from 1961-1978 had three single digit interception seasons and 7.3 yards per attempt. 

7.3 yards per attempt from 1961-1978.

Do you even have any concept of how incredible that is?

For comparison, from 2002-2016, Brees had a single solitary single digit interception season.  One. 

Brees has a career YPA of 7.6.

Fran Tarkenton was so significantly better than Brees was when factoring in the eras in which they played that it's not even remotely capable to compare territory.

Drew Brees had 79 touchdowns and 53 interceptions before the most significant rule changes in the modern era of football, which came after Bill Polian cried about the Patriots being physical with the Colts receivers. 

Drew Brees was in Tannehill territory in his career until he went to the Saints, who are the worst offenders of running up the score I have ever seen. 

His air yards over the past three years have been good enough for:

36th (that's two more than there are starting quarterbacks)
29th
32nd

In fact, for as far back as the stat currently goes, here's Drew's average depth of target starting in 2019:

6.4
7.4
6.8
7.1
7.6
7.7
8.0
7.8

You can't blame his age all the way back in 2012.

For comparison, Tom Brady, who is older.  Starting in 2019, air yards OVER Drew's average:

7.6
7.8
9.2
8.0
7.8
7.9
8.6
8.5

And Aaron Rodgers?

Other than 2017 in which he literally broke his collarbone, Aaron's LOW is the same as Drew's HIGH.

9.0
8.8
6.9 (broken collarbone)
9.0
8.5
8.2
8.3
8.0

There has never in the history of this league been a QB who has gotten more yards from YAC than Brees. 

People used to say Brady was a system quarterback.  He's not.  Brady is still overrated because of his defenses in New England and should not be judged by his Super Bowl wins alone, but he's still a top 5 QB all-time when Brees doesn't deserve to be in top 15 conversation.
 

 

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, Outpost31 said:

And Aaron Rodgers?

Other than 2017 in which he literally broke his collarbone, Aaron's LOW is the same as Drew's HIGH.

I literally put him above Brees last page

[MacReady]

Just now, Ray Reed said:

If you wanna be that guy, go ahead, but you have 0% idea how good Otto Graham was. You just don’t. Looking on a website that says “9 time all pro” doesn’t change that.

 

Lol. 

Otto Graham had 9.0 yards per attempt from 1946 to 1955.

Drew Brees wouldn't have had 4 yards per attempt in that era. 

Otto Graham was very, very, very, very, very, very obviously and indisputably better than Drew Brees. 

Otto Graham's seasons were the equivalent of one quarterback throwing a low of 60 touchdown passes and a high of 9 interceptions this decade.

He was that far ahead of his peers. 

[MacReady]

Just now, MWil23 said:

I literally put him above Brees last page

Anybody with a brain knows Aaron is twice as good as Brees could ever be and I wouldn't even have a conversation with someone who thinks Brees is better than Rodgers.

I was using Rodgers and Brady as a peer comparison.

To call Brees a top 10 all-time when he's so incredibly far away from his modern peers is just a terrible mistake.

Brees is the most overrated quarterback in the history of the league as far as career achievements. 

Nobody even remembers him right now if he had stayed in San Diego. 

It would be like twenty years from now if a Bears fan said to a Chiefs fan, "Do you remember Rex Grossman?" 

The Chiefs fan would be like, "No." 

[tyler735]

Retires as easily a top 10 QB of all time. Been a fun 15 years watching him play for the Saints.

*1st all time in passing yards

*3 highest completion percentages ever in a season

*2nd best career completion percentage

*2nd all time in game winning drives

*Most 5,000 yard passing seasons

*Highest Completion Percentage in a game 

*Most touchdown passes in a game

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by tyler735

[Duluther]

32 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Yep. I always laugh when people add players like that when they clearly have no idea how good they really were not being able to watch them, and playing in era's that are a joke compared to today's NFL

By that some token, you shouldn’t make lists of “best ___ ever,” then. The most you can do is “best players of the past ____ years.”

[Asciimo]

19 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Retires as easily a top 10 QB of all time. Been a fun 15 years watching him play for the Saints.

*1st all time in passing yards

*3 highest completion percentages ever in a season

*2nd best career completion percentage

*2nd all time in game winning drives

*Most 5,000 yard passing seasons

*Highest Completion Percentage in a game 

*Most touchdown passes in a game

can we see your top 10 list? genuinely curious.

[ramssuperbowl99]

6 minutes ago, Duluther said:

By that some token, you shouldn’t make lists of “best ___ ever,” then. The most you can do is “best players of the past ____ years.”

Eh I came into a Hall of Famer's thread and "yeah but"'d his career. Nothing wrong with a Saints fan responding defensively to that. We'd all do the same.

 

And there's also nothing wrong with saying "I don't think we can meaningfully compare guys across eras that far." Anyone who is comparing Unitas or Graham or Luckman to a modern QB knows the differences in the game, time, nutrition, access to the game (including racial discrepancies), etc. etc. make it a fundamentally different conversation than comparing Brees and Rodgers. If someone doesn't think that conversation is interesting, that's cool. Hell, baseball just formally added ***** League stats to the MLB record books. Who holds the HR record already was a matter of opinion, but it very much is now. Same thing applies here.

And there's not really a difference between saying "I think Brees is the 10th best QB ever, or the 8th best after the merger" if that's the way you want to think about it.

[tyler735]

14 minutes ago, Duluther said:

By that some token, you shouldn’t make lists of “best ___ ever,” then. The most you can do is “best players of the past ____ years.”

The problem is, "best ever" lists are always going to be brought up in these types of forums. With that, I generally go with the modern era players going up against more complex schemes, and much more athletic players. Then there's the whole segregation aspect against the competition level, that didn't allow everyone to play from older era's.

Edited January 18, 2021 by tyler735

[Mox]

49 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

In no order:

1. Tom Brady
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Peyton Manning
4. Steve Young
5. Joe Montana
6. Bart Starr
7. John Elway
8. Dan Marino
9. Fran Tarkenton
10. Russell Wilson
11. Brett Favre
12. Otto Graham
13. Johnny Unitas

Mahomes probably eclipses him.
A bunch of other quarterbacks who actually didn't choke in the postseason.
A bunch of fringe guys, too.  Moon, Kelly, whose playing era probably puts them ahead of Brees.  

Brees doesn't even sniff top 10 if not for landing in the perfect scheme for him.  He's a Tannehill/Pennington type if he stays in San Diego. 

Number of single digit interception seasons as a starter:

Brees - 5/19
Brady - 8/20
Rodgers - 11/13

Number of single digit interceptions, 30 TD seasons:

Rodgers - 7/13
Brady - 6/20
Brees - 1/20

For how low Drew's air yards per attempt are compared to Aaron and Brady, when you're that far off from your contemporaries, don't even act like he's the greatest of all-time or even in the top ten.

There are 100 other quarterbacks in NFL history who would blow his production out of the water if they were asked to do what Brees does.

 

I guess I'd need to know your criteria for this list if I want to counter anything.

[Joe_is_the_best]

Never found it hard to root for Brees. Great guy. Great QB. Too bad he couldn’t go out on top, but that’s the way it goes. He'll probably change his mind, though.

[MacReady]

Just now, tyler735 said:

The problem is, "best ever" lists are always going to be brought up in these types of forums. With that, I generally go with the modern era players going up against more complex schemes, much more athletic players, and also not having to weigh in on going against competition that didn't allow everyone to play, compared with players from older era's.

This is completely backwards thinking.

It was ten times harder as a quarterback even 15 years ago. 

Tom Brady didn't have a single solitary season of 30 touchdown passes, not one season under 12 interceptions and a single season over 4,000 passing yards until Bill Polian demanded changes to the passing game. 

Then suddenly he's elite. 

McDaniels knew exactly what the NFL had become.  It had become a high efficiency passing game league where it was 10,000 times easier to kill a team passing short since illegal contact came into play. 

Calling athleticism a legitimate point is faulty, too. 

Receivers/defensive backs.
OL/DL.

They're the same. 

It's not like receivers in 1950-1999 were better athletes than defensive backs.  They were the same. 
Same with OL versus DL. 

You're not talking about 2020 receivers versus 1950 cornerbacks.  You're talking about 1950 cornerbacks versus 1950 receivers.

Specifically with Otto Graham, when you look at 174 passing touchdowns to 135 interceptions from 1946-1955, that is tantamount to 600 touchdowns and 300 interceptions today. 

I mean... That's more touchdowns and less interceptions than Aikman, and 40 years earlier.

In a league where defensive ends could pick up a quarterback, swing them like a club against the goal posts and then fart in their faces afterwards.  A league where defensive backs could literally tackle receivers. 

It is not difficult to compare eras. 

Even so, Brees is not even top 5 in quarterbacks who played in his era. 

Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brady and Manning are all demonstrably better than him.

They all have as many or more playoff wins, as many or more Super Bowl wins. 

And I also don't know why the impact of the scheme isn't even acknowledged by people defending Brees. 

11,153 of Drew's passing yards came from 5 running backs. 

 

[tyler735]

4 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

This is completely backwards thinking.

It was ten times harder as a quarterback even 15 years ago. 

Tom Brady didn't have a single solitary season of 30 touchdown passes, not one season under 12 interceptions and a single season over 4,000 passing yards until Bill Polian demanded changes to the passing game. 

Then suddenly he's elite. 

McDaniels knew exactly what the NFL had become.  It had become a high efficiency passing game league where it was 10,000 times easier to kill a team passing short since illegal contact came into play. 

Calling athleticism a legitimate point is faulty, too. 

Receivers/defensive backs.
OL/DL.

They're the same. 

It's not like receivers in 1950-1999 were better athletes than defensive backs.  They were the same. 
Same with OL versus DL. 

You're not talking about 2020 receivers versus 1950 cornerbacks.  You're talking about 1950 cornerbacks versus 1950 receivers.

Specifically with Otto Graham, when you look at 174 passing touchdowns to 135 interceptions from 1946-1955, that is tantamount to 600 touchdowns and 300 interceptions today. 

I mean... That's more touchdowns and less interceptions than Aikman, and 40 years earlier.

In a league where defensive ends could pick up a quarterback, swing them like a club against the goal posts and then fart in their faces afterwards.  A league where defensive backs could literally tackle receivers. 

It is not difficult to compare eras. 

Even so, Brees is not even top 5 in quarterbacks who played in his era. 

Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brady and Manning are all demonstrably better than him.

They all have as many or more playoff wins, as many or more Super Bowl wins. 

And I also don't know why the impact of the scheme isn't even acknowledged by people defending Brees. 

11,153 of Drew's passing yards came from 5 running backs. 

 

You're entitled to that opinion. That said, I just don't agree with it and don't care that much to get into a long discussion about it. If you think a QB from the 50's would be successful in today's NFL then I suppose we won't see eye to eye here.

 

 

[Deadpulse]

9 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

This is completely backwards thinking.

It was ten times harder as a quarterback even 15 years ago. 

Tom Brady didn't have a single solitary season of 30 touchdown passes, not one season under 12 interceptions and a single season over 4,000 passing yards until Bill Polian demanded changes to the passing game. 

Then suddenly he's elite. 

McDaniels knew exactly what the NFL had become.  It had become a high efficiency passing game league where it was 10,000 times easier to kill a team passing short since illegal contact came into play. 

Calling athleticism a legitimate point is faulty, too. 

Receivers/defensive backs.
OL/DL.

They're the same. 

It's not like receivers in 1950-1999 were better athletes than defensive backs.  They were the same. 
Same with OL versus DL. 

You're not talking about 2020 receivers versus 1950 cornerbacks.  You're talking about 1950 cornerbacks versus 1950 receivers.

Specifically with Otto Graham, when you look at 174 passing touchdowns to 135 interceptions from 1946-1955, that is tantamount to 600 touchdowns and 300 interceptions today. 

I mean... That's more touchdowns and less interceptions than Aikman, and 40 years earlier.

In a league where defensive ends could pick up a quarterback, swing them like a club against the goal posts and then fart in their faces afterwards.  A league where defensive backs could literally tackle receivers. 

It is not difficult to compare eras. 

Even so, Brees is not even top 5 in quarterbacks who played in his era. 

Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brady and Manning are all demonstrably better than him.

They all have as many or more playoff wins, as many or more Super Bowl wins. 

And I also don't know why the impact of the scheme isn't even acknowledged by people defending Brees. 

11,153 of Drew's passing yards came from 5 running backs. 

 

I disagree with you about Brees's place in history but damn this was a fun post to read.