BStanRamFan Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Just now, JonStark said: I agree with the Reynold's part. I don't think you can concretely say that Goff not going deep is on him. If no one is open, he's making the right call by not throwing it into coverage. It's almost like he's damned if he does throw it and causes a turnover and damned if he doesn't. We have a small sample size with Wolford's solo start, but it's all we have and we can make inferences from it. Throwing into coverage and throwing jump balls deep down field are two different things. Is he throwing a deep ball in a one on one situation and he didn't recognize the safety coming over? Yeah that's on him. Is he throwing a deep ball that the WR and CB are jockeying for, but the CB makes a great play? No I wouldn't fault him for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStanRamFan Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, jrry32 said: He's a QB, not a HB. It's the most important position on the field. I used this logic in another Goff related topic, got ripped for it, but yes I agree with the sentiment. 9 minutes ago, jrry32 said: The mistake people continuously make is assuming that QB progression in the NFL is linear with age. It is not. True, but you never want to see regression. Stagnation, maybe. Development of new skills, sure. But flat out regression is something you never want to see. Especially in the most important position in football as you mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeotheLion Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 32 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said: Yes, Goff has. And he has regressed the last 2 season. Hence the situation we are in. Are you trying to downplay McVay? lol I'm willing to bet McVay is a better coach now then he was 5 years ago. So McVay is able to get better as a coach. Cousins got better as a player as evidence by improving after leaving McVay. But there's no way Goff can improve as a player. Got it. Do you not see how ridiculous you sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStanRamFan Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, LeotheLion said: So McVay is able to get better as a coach. Cousins got better as a player as evidence by improving after leaving McVay. But there's no way Goff can improve as a player. Got it. Do you not see how ridiculous you sound? Cousins improved over time; he got better since his rookie season. Goff has regressed over time? Do you really not recognize the difference or not have any concern? His TD % went from 5.9/5.7%--> 3.5/3.6% from 17/18-->19/20. TD's from 28/32 to 22/20 in the same time frames. 2019 was not ideal circumstances because of the O-line and Gurley's injury, but both situations greatly improved from the previous year and yet Goff performed significantly worse than 17/18 season. We're just going in circles here. Believe what you wish, I shall do the same and let's see what McVay does this offseason in terms of the QB position. I'm willing to bet we have a new potential starter on the roster; whether thats FA/trade or Draft pick is TBD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 30 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said: True, but you never want to see regression. Stagnation, maybe. Development of new skills, sure. But flat out regression is something you never want to see. Especially in the most important position in football as you mentioned above. Okay. Take a look at Peyton Manning's Years 2 through 5 of his career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStanRamFan Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Okay. Take a look at Peyton Manning's Years 2 through 5 of his career. When we get a QB on this roster worth mentioning in the same breath as a top 5 QB of all time, I will make sure to have that comparison ready. When teams become as patient with development and the NFL becomes bereft of talent again at the QB position like it was in 1999, I will make sure to have that comparison ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said: When we get a QB on this roster worth mentioning in the same breath as a top 5 QB of all time, I will make sure to have that comparison ready. If this were 2002, nobody would be calling him a top 5 QB of all time. He was great in Years 2 and 3 and then regressed in Years 4 and 5. He even led the Colts to a 6-10 season in Year 4. Pocket passers hit their prime between 27 and 30 years old. Let me demonstrate it with some data. I put together a list of 10 notable QBs from the past decade (not all are/were elite, so I can't be accused of only cherry-picking great QBs), and here are the jumps in passer rating from their age-26 seasons to the rest of their careers (27 years old forward):Brees Age-26 Season: 89.2 Rest of Career: 101.5 Differential: +12.3 Roethlisberger Age-26 Season: 80.1 Rest of Career: 95.5 Differential: +15.4 Rivers Age-26 Season: 82.4 Rest of Career: 96.3 Differential: +13.9 Brady Age-26 Season: 85.9 Rest of Career: 99.2 Differential: +13.3 P. Manning Age-26 Season: 88.8 Rest of Career: 101.0 Differential: +12.2 Stafford Age-26 Season: 85.7 Rest of Career: 96.2 Differential: +10.5 Cousins Age-26 Season: 86.4 Rest of Career: 100.5 Differential: +14.1 A. Smith Age-26 Season: 82.1 Rest of Career: 92.9 Differential: +10.8 Carr Age-26 Season: 86.4 Rest of Career: 98.6 Differential: +12.2 E. Manning Age-26 Season: 73.9 Rest of Career: 87.2 Differential: +13.3 That gives us a range of +10.5 to +15.4 for the 10 QBs. The mean is +12.8. The median is +12.75. Guess who just had his age-26 season? Jared Goff. Quote When teams become as patient with development and the NFL becomes bereft of talent again at the QB position like it was in 1999, I will make sure to have that comparison ready. This is an odd argument. So we should be impatient and risk getting rid of a guy who could become a great QB? Why? We're winning with him already. Edited January 20, 2021 by jrry32 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStanRamFan Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, jrry32 said: If this were 2002, nobody would be calling him a top 5 QB of all time. He was great in Years 2 and 3 and then regressed in Years 4 and 5. He even led the Colts to a 6-10 season in Year 4. Pocket passers hit their prime between 27 and 30 years old. Let me demonstrate it with some data. I put together a list of 10 notable QBs from the past decade (not all are/were elite, so I can't be accused of only cherry-picking great QBs), and here are the jumps in passer rating from their age-26 seasons to the rest of their careers (27 years old forward):Brees Age-26 Season: 89.2 Rest of Career: 101.5 Differential: +12.3 Roethlisberger Age-26 Season: 80.1 Rest of Career: 95.5 Differential: +15.4 Rivers Age-26 Season: 82.4 Rest of Career: 96.3 Differential: +13.9 Brady Age-26 Season: 85.9 Rest of Career: 99.2 Differential: +13.3 P. Manning Age-26 Season: 88.8 Rest of Career: 101.0 Differential: +12.2 Stafford Age-26 Season: 85.7 Rest of Career: 96.2 Differential: +10.5 Cousins Age-26 Season: 86.4 Rest of Career: 100.5 Differential: +14.1 A. Smith Age-26 Season: 82.1 Rest of Career: 92.9 Differential: +10.8 Carr Age-26 Season: 86.4 Rest of Career: 98.6 Differential: +12.2 E. Manning Age-26 Season: 73.9 Rest of Career: 87.2 Differential: +13.3 That gives us a range of +10.5 to +15.4 for the 10 QBs. The mean is +12.8. The median is +12.75. Guess who just had his age-26 season? Jared Goff. I wish McVay knew all this. Maybe he wouldn't be considering evaluating the position then going into 2021. How about we look at Drew Bledsoe? Had three 10 win seasons in the first 5 years. Lost in the Superbowl in year 4. Had his best years of his career years 3-5. Age 26 onward: 8-6, 8-8, 5-11, 8-8, 6-10,9-7, 9-7. Replaced by a late round pick year 9 at age 29 due to injury. Age 26 season: 80.9 Age 27: 75.6 Age 28: 77.3 Age 30 (Resurgence!): 86 Age 31: 73.0 Age 32: 76.6 It can go both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, BStanRamFan said: I wish McVay knew all this. Maybe he wouldn't be considering evaluating the position then going into 2021. How about we look at Drew Bledsoe? Had three 10 win seasons in the first 5 years. Lost in the Superbowl in year 4. Had his best years of his career years 3-5. Age 26 onward: 8-6, 8-8, 5-11, 8-8, 6-10,9-7, 9-7. Replaced by a late round pick year 9 at age 29 due to injury. Age 26 season: 80.9 Age 27: 75.6 Age 28: 77.3 Age 30 (Resurgence!): 86 Age 31: 73.0 Age 32: 76.6 It can go both ways. There are going to be exceptions to anything. Although, Bledsoe's career is quite unlike Goff's. His best years of his career were arguably his 4th and 5th seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStanRamFan Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 17 minutes ago, jrry32 said: There are going to be exceptions to anything. Although, Bledsoe's career is quite unlike Goff's. His best years of his career were arguably his 4th and 5th seasons. Both number 1 over all picks from the Pac 12, poth pocket passers, both lost a SuperBowl in their first 5 years of their career. Similar builds. although Drew was a little heavier. I'd say they have quite similar starts. Obviously, Drew's career took a different turn due to the injury and I hope that never happens to Goff. So Drew's best years were 4 and 5 and Goff's were 2 and 3 (right now); very similar actually. Come on man you're the research king, I thought this was a good one lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said: Both number 1 over all picks from the Pac 12, poth pocket passers, both lost a SuperBowl in their first 5 years of their career. Similar builds. although Drew was a little heavier. I'd say they have quite similar starts. Obviously, Drew's career took a different turn due to the injury and I hope that never happens to Goff. So Drew's best years were 4 and 5 and Goff's were 2 and 3 (right now); very similar actually. Come on man you're the research king, I thought this was a good one lol Goff's career to this point has a lot more in common with Peyton Manning than it does Drew Bledsoe. 😉 Edited January 20, 2021 by jrry32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStanRamFan Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Goff's career to this point has a lot more in common with Peyton Manning than it does Drew Bledsoe. Ehhh dont think I agree. I just listed the similarities. Losing a SuperBowl in the first 5 years after being a #1 overall pick I think is a striking similarity that very few QB's have. Struggled their first year (Goff in much fewer starts), but made a big jump in Year 2. Up to Goff to see which direction his career takes from 26 onward. It can go the Drew Bledsoe direction or the Peyton Manning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said: Ehhh dont think I agree. I just listed the similarities. Losing a SuperBowl in the first 5 years after being a #1 overall pick I think is a striking similarity that very few QB's have. Struggled their first year (Goff in much fewer starts), but made a big jump in Year 2. Up to Goff to see which direction his career takes from 26 onward. It can go the Drew Bledsoe direction or the Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning and Jared Goff: Year 1: Not good (Goff sucked more) Year 2: Massive progression to very good Year 3: Big progression to great Year 4: Massive regression to turnover prone mess Year 5: Slight progression but still too turnover prone Drew Bledsoe: Year 1: Not good Year 2: Some progression to turnover prone mediocrity Year 3: Regression back to not good Year 4: Massive progression to good Year 5: Slight progression to good Looking at the progression and regression, it's Manning and Goff who mirror each other. Now, odds are Goff will never be anywhere near as good as prime Manning. But the starts of their careers are similar in many respects. Goff, though, has had far more playoff success. Edited January 20, 2021 by jrry32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRamsFan88 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 7 hours ago, LeotheLion said: Edge rusher is clearly the highest priority. I'm guessing we are losing Floyd so everyone else is unproven. I like what I've seen with Ogbo but he's had durability concerns throughout his career. WR may not even be a major need. It's very weird that Jefferson got so few opportunities when he projected as the best guy to stretch defenses vertically. I'd like to see us draft someone but I think Edge rusher and OL are want I want to take early. I wouldn't be opposed to ILB but I agree with you, I had high hopes for Howard. ILB is also the easiest position in my mind to add a cheap vet. The rest of our positions of needs are likely to be costly in FA. I expected more from Jefferson, especially because he received so much hype from the coaches and fans. If he’s capable of stretching the field then perhaps we won’t have to spend money/draft currency on another guy. The Rams need someone to help out Donald, and I mean a legit pass rusher who can strike fear in a defense, and not someone who’s just playing clean up because AD has three guys on him. O-line is another smart investment, but I think we’d be in a better position bringing in a vet to play inside and drafting a future LT to replace Whitworth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky_rams Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 3 hours ago, jrry32 said: Peyton Manning and Jared Goff: Year 1: Not good (Goff sucked more) Year 2: Massive progression to very good Year 3: Big progression to great Year 4: Massive regression to turnover prone mess Year 5: Slight progression but still too turnover prone Drew Bledsoe: Year 1: Not good Year 2: Some progression to turnover prone mediocrity Year 3: Regression back to not good Year 4: Massive progression to good Year 5: Slight progression to good Looking at the progression and regression, it's Manning and Goff who mirror each other. Now, odds are Goff will never be anywhere near as good as prime Manning. But the starts of their careers are similar in many respects. Goff, though, has had far more playoff success. Goff also had a much better coach than Manning. Manning and Goff may have had similar careers thus far into year 5 but no way are they same mentally. Manning was touted as one of the best prospects ever. Manning was playing during the time QB was much harder and it wasn’t as watered down as it is now. If all else was equal for Manning and Goff the mental aspect was a huge difference. Goff and Manning are no where near the same level of football IQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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