2021 Free Agents - Current Lions and possible future Lions

[diehardlionfan]

Given the 2021 draft just concluded we don’t have any idea about the team needs. Trades, free agent signings both this year and next will alter the outlook.

I hope they don’t need a QB however if they do there will be a good prospect available.

Comp picks look like 3rd, 5th and 7th combined with the draft capital Holmes has accumulated for the 22 and 23 drafts.

Holmes can target any player he wants. He can stay put, move up, down or attempt trades to push draft capital into the 23, 24 drafts.

In very short order Holmes and team have totally changed the outlook for the Lions.

Now we have to get through the boredom period waiting for training camp.

[BigC421/]

1 hour ago, Louis Friend said:

Way too early to know anything. Including the QB situation. People keep sleeping on the fact that Holmes likes Goff. He was not negative value in the Stafford trade for the Lions. They wanted him. Now, whether he pans out here or not, and whether a QB in the draft will be best value available, remains to be seen. But I'm seeing alot of statements that the Lions NEED a QB next draft and we just don't know that at this point. 

You guys talk like Goff’s a rookie or came from some unfavorable situation.  We can evaluate him now. He’s not a top 15 qb in the league.  The ceiling is always capped with a guy like Goff at quarterback.  There’s a much better chance of finding an upgrade at a qb with a single pick than there is of building the perfect team so superior in talent and coaching to the LA Rams that we can win with Goff.  
 

He’s not terrible by any means and I have even argued people were underrating him in the past.  He’s just not the guy your going to win big with.  I seriously don’t understand how anyone can watch modern football and not understand the imperial importance of the quarterback position. If you don’t have an elite quarterback your always trying to obtain one over anything else.  Goff is not elite

Edited May 6, 2021 by BigC421/

[Sllim Pickens]

19 minutes ago, BigC421/ said:

You guys talk like Goff’s a rookie or came from some unfavorable situation.  We can evaluate him now. He’s not a top 15 qb in the league.  The ceiling is always capped with a guy like Goff at quarterback.  There’s a much better chance of finding an upgrade at a qb with a single pick than there is of building the perfect team so superior in talent and coaching to the LA Rams that we can win with Goff.  
 

He’s not terrible by any means and I have even argued people were underrating him in the past.  He’s just not the guy your going to win big with.  I seriously don’t understand how anyone can watch modern football and not understand the imperial importance of the quarterback position. If you don’t have an elite quarterback your always trying to obtain one over anything else.  Goff is not elite

He isnt a rookie but he is at the age a lot of QBs take the next step.  And if he doesn't, he was in a SB three years ago and won a playoff game this year.  So teams can win with him.  He had a falling out with his coach, but he also is not a throw away QB.  He may not be top 15 but he is right on the edge of it.  

[BigC421/]

2 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

He isnt a rookie but he is at the age a lot of QBs take the next step.  And if he doesn't, he was in a SB three years ago and won a playoff game this year.  So teams can win with him.  He had a falling out with his coach, but he also is not a throw away QB.  He may not be top 15 but he is right on the edge of it.  

So we pretty much agree on the player. It’s the value of the position where we differ. 

[Sllim Pickens]

4 hours ago, BigC421/ said:

So we pretty much agree on the player. It’s the value of the position where we differ. 

I guess. Teams win SBs with average QBs.  He is an average starting QB right now and could take steps forward with the right system. He has shown it and at one point a couple years ago, was widely considered a top 10 QB. Building a team around a solid QB can get it done.  So if we have a top 15 QB, which he very well could be by the end of this year, why draft one when we can continue to fix the defense?  Unless there is a Trevor Lawrence/Andrew Luck/Peyton Manning type prospect available, it will be very hard to upgrade over what we have.  If he comes out and tanks, than sure you grab a QB early. He has more playoff wins than the Lions have in the SB era, so yeah, I’m giving him a shot. 

[BigC421/]

NFL.com did there compensation pick projections for next year and have the Lions getting 3 picks. 3rd , 5th and a 6th

[SimbaWho]

9 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I guess. Teams win SBs with average QBs.  He is an average starting QB right now and could take steps forward with the right system. He has shown it and at one point a couple years ago, was widely considered a top 10 QB. Building a team around a solid QB can get it done.  So if we have a top 15 QB, which he very well could be by the end of this year, why draft one when we can continue to fix the defense?  Unless there is a Trevor Lawrence/Andrew Luck/Peyton Manning type prospect available, it will be very hard to upgrade over what we have.  If he comes out and tanks, than sure you grab a QB early. He has more playoff wins than the Lions have in the SB era, so yeah, I’m giving him a shot. 

When was the last time a Superbowl winning team won with an average QB? Brad Johnson? Trent Dilfer? I mean Sheesh if you look... It's pretty standard through like the last 15 years you need a top notch QB to win along with a pretty good team.

To me what you're suggesting is the same thing the Vikings/Broncos constantly do which is build a great team and then hand the keys to an average QB an expect to win when the most important player is... average.

Also aren't pigeon holing the team to draft a QB. I mean if Goff makes the playoffs with this team, then man, the rebuild, etc, is a retool and Lions are going to be good for a long time. It'd great great if Goff could come in and not be... average.

Edited May 7, 2021 by SimbaWho

[Sllim Pickens]

38 minutes ago, SimbaWho said:

When was the last time a Superbowl winning team won with an average QB? Brad Johnson? Trent Dilfer? I mean Sheesh if you look... It's pretty standard through like the last 15 years you need a top notch QB to win along with a pretty good team.

To me what you're suggesting is the same thing the Vikings/Broncos constantly do which is build a great team and then hand the keys to an average QB an expect to win when the most important player is... average.

Also aren't pigeon holing the team to draft a QB. I mean if Goff makes the playoffs with this team, then man, the rebuild, etc, is a retool and Lions are going to be good for a long time. It'd great great if Goff could come in and not be... average.

Nick Foles won a couple years ago.  Eli Manning won two and was never considered a top 10 QB in the league (Goff is a career 63% passer with a 2/1 TD to INT ratio, Manning is a 60% passer with a 1.3/1 TD to INT ratio).  Joe Flacco won a SB and is still in the league.  Ben Roethlisberger has never been considered a top 10 QB and won a SB. The Vikings threw in Kirk Cousins, who has never been as good as Goff has played in his career.  They hoped and failed.  And still almost made a SB with Keenum, I would take an NFC championship game at this point.  The Broncos won two SBs with a very average late in his career barely can move Manning who put up very average stats for them.  

Yes it would be great to have Pat Mahomes or Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers but those types are hard to find and are much more likely to get Mitch Trubisky than one of those.  Goff is a solid QB, has always been a solid QB and was a scapegoat in LA.  If he tanks, fine, replace him.  But even if he only wins 5 or 6 games with this group but plays well and our defense is still an issue, then I am keeping him and using my first round capital to build around him.  

We have a solid QB and a ton of draft capital to build around him.  As long as he isnt trash, we would likely be much better off building up the team around him. 

[SimbaWho]

I'm not even gonna argue Big Ben or Cousins cause I think you're way off base on both guys. Goff's not that good, its why he was replaced... but, hey, we'll get to see when the season starts, Cousins has also produced very similar or better with less talent around him.

I hate your argument so much cause there is proof through a period of time that you're going against the grain, doesn't mean it can't happen but it's more likely not to happen than to happen. You're also totally casting aside that a better QB is starring you down with that first 1strdp. 

Imo, you are drawing up a "perfect" scenario and I'm drawing up the "likely" situation. 6 or less wins, top 5 pick, likely one of the three top QB's starring you down. I'm not being a jerk either, I understand your side, but like idk I don't think it's likley we win 6 games and like 10-9 of them are decided by TD's or less. If that's the case then, likely It's not the QB's fault right? I seem like a hater, but Goff's somewhere in that 15-20 best QB's, he'll be a solid solider and give the boys a punchers shot but he'll never, imo, lead this team anywhere.

As for the draft, I like Rattler but we'll see who rises or maintains the top. Things happen, but I'm already targeting Kedon Slovis, QB. USC. and Spencer Rattler, QB. Oklahoma. HARD not to be impressed a little with Rattler last year if you watched Oklahoma... All I'm saying.

[Sllim Pickens]

1 hour ago, SimbaWho said:

I'm not even gonna argue Big Ben or Cousins cause I think you're way off base on both guys. Goff's not that good, its why he was replaced... but, hey, we'll get to see when the season starts, Cousins has also produced very similar or better with less talent around him.

I hate your argument so much cause there is proof through a period of time that you're going against the grain, doesn't mean it can't happen but it's more likely not to happen than to happen. You're also totally casting aside that a better QB is starring you down with that first 1strdp. 

Imo, you are drawing up a "perfect" scenario and I'm drawing up the "likely" situation. 6 or less wins, top 5 pick, likely one of the three top QB's starring you down. I'm not being a jerk either, I understand your side, but like idk I don't think it's likley we win 6 games and like 10-9 of them are decided by TD's or less. If that's the case then, likely It's not the QB's fault right? I seem like a hater, but Goff's somewhere in that 15-20 best QB's, he'll be a solid solider and give the boys a punchers shot but he'll never, imo, lead this team anywhere.

As for the draft, I like Rattler but we'll see who rises or maintains the top. Things happen, but I'm already targeting Kedon Slovis, QB. USC. and Spencer Rattler, QB. Oklahoma. HARD not to be impressed a little with Rattler last year if you watched Oklahoma... All I'm saying.

No, aside from Tom Brady, 50% of the time the SB is won by an average QB with a good defense. 

Ben's first six years are worse than Goffs, by a considerable amount.  Ben has never been considered a great QB, just he won with a really good team around him when he was young so people think he was an all time great.  Had Goff won the 1 SB he played in, he would be higher regarded than Ben.  

Cousins is an average QB, but on the lower end of average.  They hoped his glimpses in Washington were real but he isn't.  He is solid, but not more better than Keenum and that team got worse as a whole aside from the QB position after Keenum.  He can get bulk stats but has disappeared in any game that matters.  

Goff has put up numbers, he has won big games, he has done nothing to deserve the level of hate he got from the Rams front office.  He has limitations, but with the right team he can play in a Super Bowl.  Football is a team sport, and a great QB can only win when they have a great team.  The whole is more important than the parts, so build up the team or we will waste another good QB like we did Stafford.  We finally have the resources to build it up the right way, and have a good enough QB to do it with.  I agree he is in the 15-20 range, closer to 15 than 20, but for two years of his career he was top 10 in the league.  He has that potential, and did it with a great run game, balanced team and a solid defense that helped him not be under pressure the whole game.  

[BigC421/]

2 hours ago, SimbaWho said:

I'm not even gonna argue Big Ben or Cousins cause I think you're way off base on both guys. Goff's not that good, its why he was replaced... but, hey, we'll get to see when the season starts, Cousins has also produced very similar or better with less talent around him.

I hate your argument so much cause there is proof through a period of time that you're going against the grain, doesn't mean it can't happen but it's more likely not to happen than to happen. You're also totally casting aside that a better QB is starring you down with that first 1strdp. 

Imo, you are drawing up a "perfect" scenario and I'm drawing up the "likely" situation. 6 or less wins, top 5 pick, likely one of the three top QB's starring you down. I'm not being a jerk either, I understand your side, but like idk I don't think it's likley we win 6 games and like 10-9 of them are decided by TD's or less. If that's the case then, likely It's not the QB's fault right? I seem like a hater, but Goff's somewhere in that 15-20 best QB's, he'll be a solid solider and give the boys a punchers shot but he'll never, imo, lead this team anywhere.

As for the draft, I like Rattler but we'll see who rises or maintains the top. Things happen, but I'm already targeting Kedon Slovis, QB. USC. and Spencer Rattler, QB. Oklahoma. HARD not to be impressed a little with Rattler last year if you watched Oklahoma... All I'm saying.

This qb class is fascinating.  There could easily be 6 guys with 1st round grades already and while I don’t think any of them have proven top 5 worthy just yet I can see some monster seasons on the horizon.  Will be a very interesting college football season watching this group progress and see who rises.  I have Rattler and Corral atop my list so far.  

[diehardlionfan]

The best thing that happened to Rattler was his benching. 
 

[Sllim Pickens]

1 hour ago, BigC421/ said:

This qb class is fascinating.  There could easily be 6 guys with 1st round grades already and while I don’t think any of them have proven top 5 worthy just yet I can see some monster seasons on the horizon.  Will be a very interesting college football season watching this group progress and see who rises.  I have Rattler and Corral atop my list so far.  

I feel like this class has a lot of Jake Locker, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles types in it. Not sure why but i am just not intrigued by any of these QBs at this point.  I think any of the top 4 QBs drafted this year would be #1 in the class next year.  And Mac Jones would probably be fighting for that designation too.  And that all could change, given I only really was high on Fields and Lawrence coming into this year, but even then I still feel like Wilson has a high flop potential.  If we start out rough, I will have to take more looks at these QBs.  I just wish one of the top 4 or 5 were taller than 6'1". I know being tall isnt a requirement, it just seems to help in the NFL and successful short QBs are still the exception. 

[SimbaWho]

5 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

No, aside from Tom Brady, 50% of the time the SB is won by an average QB with a good defense. 

Ben's first six years are worse than Goffs, by a considerable amount.  Ben has never been considered a great QB, just he won with a really good team around him when he was young so people think he was an all time great.  Had Goff won the 1 SB he played in, he would be higher regarded than Ben.  

Cousins is an average QB, but on the lower end of average.  They hoped his glimpses in Washington were real but he isn't.  He is solid, but not more better than Keenum and that team got worse as a whole aside from the QB position after Keenum.  He can get bulk stats but has disappeared in any game that matters.  

Goff has put up numbers, he has won big games, he has done nothing to deserve the level of hate he got from the Rams front office.  He has limitations, but with the right team he can play in a Super Bowl.  Football is a team sport, and a great QB can only win when they have a great team.  The whole is more important than the parts, so build up the team or we will waste another good QB like we did Stafford.  We finally have the resources to build it up the right way, and have a good enough QB to do it with.  I agree he is in the 15-20 range, closer to 15 than 20, but for two years of his career he was top 10 in the league.  He has that potential, and did it with a great run game, balanced team and a solid defense that helped him not be under pressure the whole game.  

 

Yeah I don't got much to offer than disagree with a lot but I kinda knew this would be the type of response. Unsure of why I went down the rabbit hole. Agree to disagree with you bud. I actually have a lot to say but from experience I know I'm not changing your mind.

Edited May 7, 2021 by SimbaWho

[BigC421/]

5 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I feel like this class has a lot of Jake Locker, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles types in it. Not sure why but i am just not intrigued by any of these QBs at this point.  I think any of the top 4 QBs drafted this year would be #1 in the class next year.  And Mac Jones would probably be fighting for that designation too.  And that all could change, given I only really was high on Fields and Lawrence coming into this year, but even then I still feel like Wilson has a high flop potential.  If we start out rough, I will have to take more looks at these QBs.  I just wish one of the top 4 or 5 were taller than 6'1". I know being tall isnt a requirement, it just seems to help in the NFL and successful short QBs are still the exception. 

I agree non of these guys scream top 5 must take quarterback and as important as the position is you can’t force it.  If the right guy isn’t there he isn’t there and you move on. A lot of guys with 1st rd talent though and with another year of development anyone of them could blow up.  I already like Corral better than Fields.  He has such an effortlessly smooth and quick release. I see some Watson in him with the better release.