Cakeshoppe Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Holding a jersey inside the shoulders=Not Holding It's always been that way. This. I watched the first half or so of the video and I was taught in 2005 as a high school LB (not exactly a state of the art program) that that wasn't holding so it's not like it's a new thing that refs aren't calling this holding. 31 minutes ago, TransientTexan said: I don’t care how it’s historically been enforced. I care what the rule book actually says. The problem here is that the rulebook is incredibly vague on this point. Watch any play and then go to the rulebook and look at the rule; knowing the wording of it won't do a thing to help you decide if an act that you just watched is holding. The other problem is that while we'd like to think that it should be, the rule book is not really the exclusive source on rule enforcement. Much of it lays out (like the holding rules) somewhat vague language on player conduct but if you follow actual rule enforcement closely, you'll notice that Refs are very clearly using other sources (internal memos, training sessions, etc.) on which they base their decisions. It's a lot like law. You can read the statutes all you want but you won't get the whole story on how they actually relate to real-world conduct without reading case law. It's just the way rules tend to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TransientTexan Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 hours ago, Cakeshoppe said: The problem here is that the rulebook is incredibly vague on this point. Watch any play and then go to the rulebook and look at the rule; knowing the wording of it won't do a thing to help you decide if an act that you just watched is holding. The other problem is that while we'd like to think that it should be, the rule book is not really the exclusive source on rule enforcement. Much of it lays out (like the holding rules) somewhat vague language on player conduct but if you follow actual rule enforcement closely, you'll notice that Refs are very clearly using other sources (internal memos, training sessions, etc.) on which they base their decisions. It's a lot like law. You can read the statutes all you want but you won't get the whole story on how they actually relate to real-world conduct without reading case law. It's just the way rules tend to work. Seems pretty clear to me. Their own website says "It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body". http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/offensive-holding/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cakeshoppe Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 29 minutes ago, TransientTexan said: Seems pretty clear to me. Their own website says "It is a foul regardless of whether the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body". http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/offensive-holding/ I'm speaking about the rest of the rule. "Use his hands or arms to materially restrict an opponent or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit." Care to show me any down of football that does not include a player using his hands to alter the defender's path? Clearly something other the plain text of the rulebook has to be used to adjudicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 If you get your hands there where Bulaga does it limits the range of motion of the shoulder. The shoulder pad is pushing back on your shoulder and severly limits where you can move, I learned this from the other side as a DE. This is a totally legal play, provided #1 that if the QB breaks the pocket you let the guy go and chase, and #2 your grip doesn't shift up to the top/side of the shoulder during the play. This is a good video, but this isn't something to bring up the Packers about, this was something I was taught to watch for as a HS DE, and taught to do as a D3 TE. Surprised he's acting like this is some new technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Do our linemen do anything that others on other teams do not do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TransientTexan Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Cakeshoppe said: I'm speaking about the rest of the rule. "Use his hands or arms to materially restrict an opponent or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit." Care to show me any down of football that does not include a player using his hands to alter the defender's path? Clearly something other the plain text of the rulebook has to be used to adjudicate. Nobody is arguing how it currently is enforced. I'm arguing how it should be enforced. Maybe the commonsense definition of "hold"? how do you "hold" a coffee mug? seems pretty straightforward. Just because they've been ignoring the rulebook to show offensive favoritism doesn't mean it's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biletnikoff Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 bla bla bla.. the fact is, if you actually just watch the linemen the entire game. There is holding on every play. theres no question about it. Dont give me crap about intention, rule wording or technique. There is simply holding on every single down in every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PackyAttacky Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 hey the Vikes mastered that technique today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crickett Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 21 hours ago, PackyAttacky said: hey the Vikes mastered that technique today. Well to be fair, he did say in the video that the Vikings were the one team who were able to counteract this effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Here's more on the Packers OL from Ben Muth at Football Outsiders http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2017/word-muth-gloom-green-bay He breaks down the breakdowns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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