2021 off-season discussion

[jrry32]

12 hours ago, BStanRamFan said:

Depending on the timing of the quotes, yes they could be conflicting.

In the beginning, McVay would use the QB coaches to get points across to Goff. Then he would talk to Goff directly on the sidelines, but made sure to build him back up. Not until the loss to SF this year did McVay finally call out Goff in public. 

One takeaway from this article could be that we have cry babies in the locker room. Another way is that Goff couldn't handle being criticized and needed to be "built back up" constantly afterwards. 

Personally, I have no concerns over cry babies in the lockerroom. I don't see it being an issue, win or lose.

You're a poor leader of men (and women) if you don't build people back up after tearing them down. Whenever I am supervising/mentoring people, as long as they're making a good faith effort, I find ways to both offer constructive criticisms and point out the positives and then end by encouraging them. If all you do is crap on the best efforts people are giving, you're going to undermine their confidence and cause them to start tuning you out. It's not a good way to teach or lead.

7 hours ago, MDY10 said:

I feel about the same. Especially about Goff not being able to handle criticism and as soon as the “building back up” part stopped happening he sunk. I truly think he’s just not mature enough yet. I’ve always thought he’d be a good player in his later years when he picks up defenses and matured a bit. Love the guy and hope he balls out but that’s how I always felt and this almost confirmed it for me.

Sounds like Goff handled criticism just fine until McVay stopped doing his job well. Goff and McVay both had their failures. McVay is a great coach, but he has some of the shortcomings that his mentor, Jon Gruden, has traditionally also had.

[NYRamsFan88]

3 hours ago, jrry32 said:

You're a poor leader of men (and women) if you don't build people back up after tearing them down. Whenever I am supervising/mentoring people, as long as they're making a good faith effort, I find ways to both offer constructive criticisms and point out the positives and then end by encouraging them. If all you do is crap on the best efforts people are giving, you're going to undermine their confidence and cause them to start tuning you out. It's not a good way to teach or lead.

Sounds like Goff handled criticism just fine until McVay stopped doing his job well. Goff and McVay both had their failures. McVay is a great coach, but he has some of the shortcomings that his mentor, Jon Gruden, has traditionally also had.

McVay needs to do better with building up his QB. When Stafford moves on in a couple years, most likely we’ll have to groom a rookie ( or a really young vet ) to take his place, and the last thing we need is McVay tearing him down without uplifting 

[BStanRamFan]

4 hours ago, jrry32 said:

You're a poor leader of men (and women) if you don't build people back up after tearing them down. Whenever I am supervising/mentoring people, as long as they're making a good faith effort, I find ways to both offer constructive criticisms and point out the positives and then end by encouraging them. If all you do is crap on the best efforts people are giving, you're going to undermine their confidence and cause them to start tuning you out. It's not a good way to teach or lead.

Sounds like he was doing that the first few years and eventually just became frustrated when he didn't develop as they had hoped.. I get what you're saying, but professional sports is not the industry to get away with ," Sorry Demoff, I can't bench Goff. I don't want to crap on his best efforts".

In the real world, your approach is correct. In professional sports, it's perform or we will find someone else who will.  On the flipside of positive reinforcement, some people actually respond well to being critiqued. It turns into a fight or flight mentality and they rise to the occasion. "Tell me I can't do something and watch what I do". Unfortunately, that was not the best way to handle Goff. Even though McVay is so young, he has an old school approach. Newer players have a different mentality and a diff way of how they want to be handled. 

[BStanRamFan]

12 hours ago, MDY10 said:

I feel about the same. Especially about Goff not being able to handle criticism and as soon as the “building back up” part stopped happening he sunk. I truly think he’s just not mature enough yet. I’ve always thought he’d be a good player in his later years when he picks up defenses and matured a bit. Love the guy and hope he balls out but that’s how I always felt and this almost confirmed it for me.

Everyone read this and saw it differently. I saw it as Goff coming off as coddled and soft. The guy spent 3 or so years catering to you and building you up, but Goff never progressed so he became frustrated. The window in this league is so narrow that you can't continue the handle holding came for long. I think it was the right decision to move on. I'm very curious to see what Goff does in Detroit. I truly believe it can go both ways (boom or bust). 

[BStanRamFan]

 

 Hearing Richard Sherman of all people speak highly of what our offense can be with Stafford just gets me jacked up. Draft can't come soon enough.

 

"Goes for 5000 yards this year. I don't think hes ever had an offense with so many wide open guys and schemed open guys before"

[JonStark]

17 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

These two points say completely opposite things.

Sounds to me like we’ve got some cry babies in the locker room. Really hope we keep winning or that’s going to be real bad real quick

To me, it sounds like Mcvay can't handle the post-honeymoon phase, which is extremely troubling. He seems like a player's coach when everything is going right but a head coach that can't coach his team out adversity is a huge problem. This may not be an issue with a seasoned guy like Stafford but could be an issue with whoever succeeds him. 

15 hours ago, Flounch said:

Nothing really new, except for people who were defending Goff this season. 

We must have read different articles. This one basically laid out what Goff supporters have been saying for months about Mcvay micromanaging him and stunting his development. As an athlete, you need confidence in yourself to perform at your best. That's not debatable. As a quarterback, that's even more important. The first sign is struggle from Goff and Mcvay starts to tear him down with sideline outbursts? Yeah, that doesn't make me happy. 

[BStanRamFan]

5 minutes ago, JonStark said:

We must have read different articles. This one basically laid out what Goff supporters have been saying for months about Mcvay micromanaging him and stunting his development. As an athlete, you need confidence in yourself to perform at your best. That's not debatable. As a quarterback, that's even more important. The first sign is struggle from Goff and Mcvay starts to tear him down with sideline outbursts? Yeah, that doesn't make me happy. 

We 100% read different articles. 

Rams twitter and other boards are split on this as well. It's no suprise. People love(d) Goff and still don't agree with him getting moved. Others are happy about it. A majority of feedback I see on Rams twitter is happy about it and sees this article as understanding of McVay's frustration, but there are still people who feel Goff got a raw deal. Really only time will tell and it will be based on 1. How does McVay handle Stafford? Does that relationship sour at some point? 2. How much success will Goff have in Detroit? They are completely rebuilding so no one should expect playoffs, but we all know what competitive football looks like. I'd consider his season a success if he goes 6-11 and has a 2-1 TD to INT ratio. 3800+ yards. 

[LeotheLion]

1 hour ago, BStanRamFan said:

Sounds like he was doing that the first few years and eventually just became frustrated when he didn't develop as they had hoped.. I get what you're saying, but professional sports is not the industry to get away with ," Sorry Demoff, I can't bench Goff. I don't want to crap on his best efforts".

In the real world, your approach is correct. In professional sports, it's perform or we will find someone else who will.  On the flipside of positive reinforcement, some people actually respond well to being critiqued. It turns into a fight or flight mentality and they rise to the occasion. "Tell me I can't do something and watch what I do". Unfortunately, that was not the best way to handle Goff. Even though McVay is so young, he has an old school approach. Newer players have a different mentality and a diff way of how they want to be handled. 

But the issue is McVay didn't just bench him. He would tear him down and still trot him out there. 

To me, this article made McVay look bad. We all could see on the field why the trade happened. Goff wasn't performing well. This story threw light on McVay's leadership and how it may have derailed Goff. People describe one of McVays biggest strengths as communication. Part of being a good communicator is knowing how to deliver messages. McVay stopped trying. 

[StLunatic88]

21 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

Rams twitter and other boards are split on this as well. It's no suprise. People love(d) Goff and still don't agree with him getting moved. Others are happy about it. A majority of feedback I see on Rams twitter is happy about it and sees this article as understanding of McVay's frustration, but there are still people who feel Goff got a raw deal. Really only time will tell

I know this is going to keep running in circles, but I believe that @JonStarkis once again pointing out what we have been saying all along. 

Those of us labeled on the "Goff Side" of this have always admitted that Jared has had his issues, and needed to be better, while also pointing out that McVay has had his missteps as well and he shoulders plenty of the blame in this situation.

While those on the "McVay Side" have only dug in even more, not budged an inch, even in the face of the same proof you are trying to use against Goff that indicts McVay as well. Still act like Goff was some bum and we were somehow doomed from the start with him, while giving Sean and the Front Office a complete pass in this whole situation. Like they didnt pick him, and back him, and pay him, and had him in the MVP hunt late into the season and lead us to the Super Bowl.

Because even if Jared needed to be "coddled" (if you want to label it that) this confirms that McVay just gave up on it. He wasnt willing to put in all the work to get the best product in the field. In the middle of the season no less. There is no other way to slice it. Thats a concerning trait.

If we had a WR that only was successful if he started the play in pre-snap motion, but it was starting to annoy McVay to do that, and he just gave up on sending him in motion letting him crumble out there, therefore hindering the offense, is that completely the Receivers fault? Or does the Scouting Department, and Snead who drafted him, and McVay/Coaching staff who are supposed to develop him take some of the blame there? Sure you say that is an issue with the WR, and you then make an upgrade in the offseason. But you dont just stop doing what works best in the middle of the year. That is cutting off your nose to spite your face, or in other words, trying to start John Wolford (the vastly inferior talent)

[JonStark]

37 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

We 100% read different articles. 

Rams twitter and other boards are split on this as well. It's no suprise. People love(d) Goff and still don't agree with him getting moved. Others are happy about it. A majority of feedback I see on Rams twitter is happy about it and sees this article as understanding of McVay's frustration, but there are still people who feel Goff got a raw deal. Really only time will tell and it will be based on 1. How does McVay handle Stafford? Does that relationship sour at some point? 2. How much success will Goff have in Detroit? They are completely rebuilding so no one should expect playoffs, but we all know what competitive football looks like. I'd consider his season a success if he goes 6-11 and has a 2-1 TD to INT ratio. 3800+ yards. 

Well that's not true. I can see both sides. 

Mcvay's frustration with Goff is fine, but it's how he handled it that speaks volumes. He's the head coach and the leader  of the freaking team. People need to stop giving him a pass for stuff like this. 

I understand his frustration and I understand how the way he handled it can directly affect Goff's confidence, which is a much needed trait at the QB position. The second Goff started to struggle, his actions made it worse instead of making it better. 

Those two points tell nothing. Stafford is a much more seasoned QB and is entering his honeymoon phase with Mcvay at 33 years old. By the time that phase is over, he'll be heading towards the end of his career anyway. As for Goff, you really think throwing him on a team that won 3 games last year (with Stafford who you say is an upgrade) and replaced their top two weapons with Tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman is a fair assessment? It's not. 

[BStanRamFan]

2 minutes ago, JonStark said:

Well that's not true. I can see both sides. 

Mcvay's frustration with Goff is fine, but it's how he handled it that speaks volumes. He's the head coach and the leader  of the freaking team. People need to stop giving him a pass for stuff like this. 

I understand his frustration and I understand how the way he handled it can directly affect Goff's confidence, which is a much needed trait at the QB position. The second Goff started to struggle, his actions made it worse instead of making it better. 

Those two points tell nothing. Stafford is a much more seasoned QB and is entering his honeymoon phase with Mcvay at 33 years old. By the time that phase is over, he'll be heading towards the end of his career anyway. As for Goff, you really think throwing him on a team that won 3 games last year (with Stafford who you say is an upgrade) and replaced their top two weapons with Tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman is a fair assessment? It's not. 

This is where I have issues with those that came away from the article viewing McVay in a negative light.

McVay took the blame in the media and likely in the lockerroom the entire 2019 season and up until the SF game for Goff in 2020. He is constantly known as the HC who accepts responsibility for not putting his guys in the right spots and calling the right plays, "needs to give Gurley the ball more". He's fallen on the sword for 2 years post superbowl loss. 

Fans read this article and thought McVay just gave up on Goff when he started to struggle? Or was he tired of micromanaging a QB in his 5th year in the NFL that couldnt' diagnose coverages post-snap? At what point is enough/enough? When McVay is in the hot seat in 2021 cause he's an offensive genius who is wasting away a top 5 defense? McVay said if it's my name on the line and I need to deliver, I can't do it with this kid. Two games of Wolford confirmed his suspicions and he pulled the trigger. Gutsy move, but he felt it was what's best for the team. 

[BStanRamFan]

11 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

But the issue is McVay didn't just bench him. He would tear him down and still trot him out there. 

To me, this article made McVay look bad. We all could see on the field why the trade happened. Goff wasn't performing well. This story threw light on McVay's leadership and how it may have derailed Goff. People describe one of McVays biggest strengths as communication. Part of being a good communicator is knowing how to deliver messages. McVay stopped trying. 

He couldn't bench him cause of the contract he received. I think it was pointed out in the article. 

A coach that preaches consistency is key and has taken the blame for his team in the media for years and we question this guys leadership? We haven't had a losing season in 4 straight years, we went to a superbowl, and we're questioning his leadership? Jesus. 

McVay didn't stop "trying". He stopped babying his QB and let him sink or swim. 

[Flounch]

1 hour ago, JonStark said:

To me, it sounds like Mcvay can't handle the post-honeymoon phase, which is extremely troubling. He seems like a player's coach when everything is going right but a head coach that can't coach his team out adversity is a huge problem. This may not be an issue with a seasoned guy like Stafford but could be an issue with whoever succeeds him. 

We must have read different articles. This one basically laid out what Goff supporters have been saying for months about Mcvay micromanaging him and stunting his development. As an athlete, you need confidence in yourself to perform at your best. That's not debatable. As a quarterback, that's even more important. The first sign is struggle from Goff and Mcvay starts to tear him down with sideline outbursts? Yeah, that doesn't make me happy. 

It's funny...when i read all the comments about Mcvay mistreating Goff. 

It's not like Goff is in the rookie year and Mcvay yelled at him and didn't teach him.

The guy is a 5 years veteran with a 100+M contract, Mcvay has his right to be critical and harsh. 

In 4 years with him, he didn't show any progress at all and you want Mcvay to still be patient with him and babysitting him, until when ? OMG Mcvay yelled at him, poor Jared, poor little thing, he's a victim...

If he can't step up by himself, then he's not ready and mature enough to be treated like a big boy. 

Also, yes Mcvay was micromanaging him, but even with that, Jared still committed errors. So when you see that, do you have confidence that letting him free will upgrade his game ? I don't think so...and that's why Mcvay was frustrated because he knew that Jared wasn't able to play by himself and taht's why he micromanaged him and limit his playbook. 

[JonStark]

18 minutes ago, BStanRamFan said:

This is where I have issues with those that came away from the article viewing McVay in a negative light.

McVay took the blame in the media and likely in the lockerroom the entire 2019 season and up until the SF game for Goff in 2020. He is constantly known as the HC who accepts responsibility for not putting his guys in the right spots and calling the right plays, "needs to give Gurley the ball more". He's fallen on the sword for 2 years post superbowl loss. 

Fans read this article and thought McVay just gave up on Goff when he started to struggle? Or was he tired of micromanaging a QB in his 5th year in the NFL that couldnt' diagnose coverages post-snap? At what point is enough/enough? When McVay is in the hot seat in 2021 cause he's an offensive genius who is wasting away a top 5 defense? McVay said if it's my name on the line and I need to deliver, I can't do it with this kid. Two games of Wolford confirmed his suspicions and he pulled the trigger. Gutsy move, but he felt it was what's best for the team. 

He took the blame in the media? So what? That's basically just PR.

We don't know what he was like behind the scenes, but we do know if someone screwed up, they "got their ***** chewed out". We also know that he coddled Goff at the beginning and went to the opposite end of the spectrum once he started struggling. Micromanaging is not a quality that a true leader has. We may disagree on that, but you'll never change my mind on it. You need to let your subordinates sink or swim, otherwise they will never truly develop. If they sink, you move on. Goff was never given that chance under Mcvay because he was coddled initially and then trashed by late. 

6 minutes ago, Flounch said:

It's funny...when i read all the comments about Mcvay mistreating Goff. 

It's not like Goff is in the rookie year and Mcvay yelled at him and didn't teach him.

The guy is a 5 years veteran with a 100+M contract, Mcvay has his right to be critical and harsh. 

In 4 years with him, he didn't show any progress at all and you want Mcvay to still be patient with him and babysitting him, until when ? OMG Mcvay yelled at him, poor Jared, poor little thing, he's a victim...

If he can't step up by himself, then he's not ready and mature enough to be treated like a big boy. 

Also, yes Mcvay was micromanaging him, but even with that, Jared still committed errors. So when you see that, do you have confidence that letting him free will upgrade his game ? I don't think so...and that's why Mcvay was frustrated because he knew that Jared wasn't able to play by himself and taht's why he micromanaged him and limit his playbook. 

I don't disagree with a lot of this. Yes Goff needed to do better, especially 5 years and 100 mil in. I've conceded that, yet for some reason people keep acting like he's getting a pass. He's not. 

My issue is with how Mcvay handled this (see above) and that all of the Goff haters continue to give him a pass for everything. All that article did was confirm everything I've been saying for months. Micromanaging is not a quality a leader should possess and it's not the way to develop someone who works for you, ESPECIALLY when that person is a quarterback in the NFL. .  

[Flounch]

5 minutes ago, JonStark said:

I don't disagree with a lot of this. Yes Goff needed to do better, especially 5 years and 100 mil in. I've conceded that, yet for some reason people keep acting like he's getting a pass. He's not. 

My issue is with how Mcvay handled this (see above) and that all of the Goff haters continue to give him a pass for everything. All that article did was confirm everything I've been saying for months. Micromanaging is not a quality a leader should possess and it's not the way to develop someone who works for you, ESPECIALLY when that person is a quarterback in the NFL. .  

I'm not giving Mcvay a free pass, he has his moment of errors too, specially when Gurley was there and he didn't call the run enough. 

But i don't think Mcvay took pleasure in micromanaging Goff...i don't think everyday when he wakes up, he said to himself, well today i'm gonna to make a hell out of Jared...

I think he would have like to give Jared some freedom but he saw the limited upside in him unlike Wolford by example.